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Fri, 08 Jun 2001
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From: "Usman Malik" <islami@consultant.com> [Save Address] [Block Sender]
To: afreethinker@hotmail.com
Cc:
Subject: A major policy change
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 17:27:46 +0500
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Hi Ali,
Again some questions.
First of all, you must trust someone. it is not something needed to understand religion but, it is necessary social need. If we don’t, then we will be trapped in different things like how you will be loved everyone, why are you on ignore list of people and so on. A simple example is of teachers. Without trusting them to be right, you will never learn to even write this what you are doing now. You have to trust them until you learn how to make others believe you (off course with your knowledge). But even then this trusting part remains necessary as you question on their basis.
Now next thing is that I don’t believe to be child of God. I think if He is my creator then He is my master not my father. I think that few people used this term to become holy and gain control over each and every life form. This also served to them as licensee to do what ever they want to. Then you said that sending a messenger to a corner of the world doesn’t make sense. But well what do you think; there were neither any global television networks, nor any Internet.
Religion is based on faith and faith needs no prove. Following our parent’s religion isn’t the biggest question. Abraham left his father’s religion and asked him to do so, but his father didn’t agree and asked him to leave. Just imagine Abraham’s this act, in a place when his father used to make the idols himself.
Now Ali, again about doubt and confusion, which are two names of one thing. If people fall in confusion they look for solution (just like me). Then they find someone or something (in my case you). Then some limits themselves while other continue their search (what I did). But sometimes the people who have fell in the confusion try to interpret the thing they don’t like in a completely new way, which is necessarily not right (like you).
When you criticize the religious scripts, you first talked about worshiping cattle etc, ok. Then of Muhammad’s miracle of splitting moon, which is proved by some scientifically, but about “Vudoo”, I never heard. Now how can it be scientifically proved that one parted the sea? Sorry water is not in talking terms with us, or human’s would have asked it all about it. About Noah it is scientifically proved that Earth’s water level was way much higher and it has tremendously lowered. For just info addition, you know how petroleum is produced underground? You’ll find interesting links of it to Noah’s Ark and flood story.
I can talk about Miraj, and can talk on its scientific aspects too, but it will just increase the length of the e-mail. If you like me to tell you more about it, do let me know.
I don’t agree that doubt is way to knowledge. I think that it is need that is path to knowledge. Until you don’t need, you have no questions, and even if you have you would ask. Galileo questioned the traditional astronomy because he felt the uneasiness about accepting them, therefore he felt a need to investigate himself and let everyone be aware of it.
Sorry again, but have got some objections. Truth is the easiest path; it is the straightest path. Following it, you never need second thoughts, and you never have to make sure out of anything.
Then you said that we all are created equal. By the way, by whom the creation you are talking about. You have often quoted me things already said by Muhammad. Islam first introduced the equal creation phenomina. Please avoid such, as you don’t believe on them. And again you said that we need no guidance from any human. But as far as my study suggests, first it’s your parents whose guidance you want, like how to walk, talk, sleep and act. Then its teachers whose help is needed in studies and so on. Or simply our life is filled with guides. And have you ever seen a guide at a museum or at a historical place, you must consider them as wrong, right??
You believe in science, and there is a term in biology called cells. They are the most unit constituents of any living being. Long before it was proved to exist, it was accepted even then to exist, therefore, some people believed on a theory while some had faith on it. Then due to modern equipment scientist actually proved their existence and bang, it became a fact. But what do we get, a fact was widely accepted when it was even theory and just mere belief and faith of few? The cells when were believed and even before that, didn’t just ran away or vanished, and returned when they became fact. They were there as before, but just they were not visible. The same is applicable for Jinn.

Prove of Gravitation:

Here in that Ayah, the penetration from the regions of the earth mean to fly. Penetration is not natural for human’s like for the birds. By the heaven it means “Gravitational Sphere”. Going beyond it doesn’t causes the gravity to finish but it becomes so less that even can be neglected. This region is 400 miles above the surface of the Earth and is also called “Micro-gravity Zone”.
Penetrating through the earth: Today we see helicopters and airplanes flying. What they do is that they push the air down, causing a resultive force, pulling them up. When a helicopter starts to fly it don’t do it immediately, it takes some time, until the speed of wing rotation gets fast enough to push them up. And the airplane taxi on runway before take-off to get enough engine speed, enough to support their weight. This speed required is called escape speed. This is specifically defined as “ the required force by a material object to escape through the Gravitational field”. Same is with the mechanism of rockets, meant to take war heads, or to the trip to the space.
And just for addition of info, the escape speed from the earth is 11.2 km/second, for moon 2.38 km/second, Ceres (asteroids) 0.64 km/second, for sun 618 km/second, for Sirius (white dwarf) 5200 km/second and for a neutron star it is approximately 200,000 km/second.
Now just re-compare what Allah said and what the modern science says. Isn’t this the scientifically prove of this Ayah, that Allah asks man and jinn to escape if they can, all the vain it will be, if they do it with using sufficient force.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I still want to hear about your definition of Rational thinking in detail, not a line on proving doubt and confusion to be the solution to all of our problems. I also want to discuss the single principle but sorry, the article will just got lengthier, or too lengthy.
Ok you sometimes exaggerate. And why are you using Santa Clause too much, let’s leave the old man alone J. Ali, El and Il theory was intrusting but as you said it was myth then I just like reading them and that’s all. Just like one of Ram and abduction of his wife.
To me life becomes cool as it is meant to be when you starts to believe. You start believing in your family, in your friends and ultimately in the end even on your self. Ar-Razi, IbnSina etc, will indeed be known around the world for good but Bukhari and Muslim, I don’t think that they did anything bad. They were like us, they questioned Allah and Muhammad, and lucky they that they learned to believe. And don’t worry I don’t like Mullahs of Afghanistan. I don’t even consider them Muslims; they are some one in there own category. Their hands are filled with blood of many innocent people. But you said, Islam’s glory will fade. I think it is reverse; Islam is the world’s fastest spreading non-Christian religion (according to Guinness Book of World Record).
Ok! I don’t have much knowledge of the Bible, but I have read the Old Testament. Also do you know where online I can find Joshua?
Also I want you to discuss Quranic Ayahs with me, ask me about anyone you like, I will be able to satisfy you.
At one place you answered my question and said that we might never find answer to our questions as you aren’t certain about it. But how you can ask others to follow you when you aren’t sure about it, yourself.
As you talk about scientific reasoning too much, do you know that you don’t only have to prove some theory wrong experimentally but you also have to present/submit you own alternative solution or the corrected theory. And most common example is Hutchison Effect.
A question for you: DO YOU WANT A SECULAR WORLD? OR DO YOU WANT THE RELIGIONS TO MODIFY?
At another place in article and at your website you talked about abusing Women under Islam. Come on, these are just illiterate people, or people who are under the influence of those people who “misuse religion” do so. In Islam, if some one finds his wife to be of bad character he is asked to leave her, and if he has to punish her it shouldn’t be harder then hitting with MUSWAAK. And we all know MASWAAK doesn’t hurt.
Ali now a major change in policy announcement. I have decided to discuss all this with you in a new way, as I have found a way to put an end to my confusion. I have decided to discuss from now on as a Muslim, while you do as you want. We will discuss on the policy of “convince or be convinced”. In the end if I convince you then you might join Islam again and if you win then vice versa. This will result in long term satisfaction on both sides.
I hope that you agree.
Wishes
Malik Usman

-----Original Message-----
From: "Ali Sina" <afreethinker@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 03:31:55
To: islami@consultant.com
Subject: Re: I came up with some questions:)


> Dear Usman.
>
> Thanks again for your email. I will answer only those questions of you that
> are new and will refer you to the articles where they have already been
> answered
>
> Q.
> In first Para, you mentioned that we should not follow any human being, and
> we must choose our own way. Don’t you think that these humans who claims to
> be prophets and so on, have spent their whole life in search of the truth.
> Don’t you think it is good if we choose one among them and follow his words
> and then build our life on this foundation! For example determining and
> studying religion is a full time job, people spend their whole life solely
> in this. Now if Humans have to study it only, then who will advance in other
> fields; like of science and so on.
>
> A.
> It is our responsibility to find the truth on our own and never rely on
> another person for that. Even if you want to follow someone blindly,
> trusting his or her decisions, you have to make sure that this person is a
> true guide and not a charlatan. People fail to do that. They simply rely on
> the guru of their parents. Naturally since truth cannot be more than one,
> from among thousands of ways, philosophies and religions at most only one
> can be true and the rest are wrong. How do you know which one is the true
> one? You have to investigate all of them, for which you need few thousands
> of years.
>
> What I propose is a shift of paradigm. Man should not look unto another
> human being for guidance, but be inquisitive, question, reason. In other
> words doubt and gradually find the truth.
>
> Logically it does not make sense that god send a messenger in a corner of
> the world without the rest of the world having the chance to learn about it
> immediately. If we are all children of God we all should have equal chance
> for salvation.
>
> Also it make no sense that god make his message so confusing and illogical.
> All these so-called holy books are replete with scientific incongruencies,
> errors and absurdities. A host of apologists are trying desperately to
> reinterpret the so-called “difficulties” in their holy books. Shouldn’t the
> message of God be simple and clear to understand? If there are so many sects
> in the same religion, doesn’t it prove that the holy book of that religion
> is not clear for everyone to understand the same truth as God intended? Go
> to the section dedicated to Quran in my site and read any one of the
> articles, especially the Contradictions in Quran. See how this book is
> obtuse and contradictory. Could it be that the maker of this universe be so
> ignorant as it appears to be in Quran? (Bible is not better).
>
> The facts that people follow the religion of their fathers is proof that
> their faith is based on imitation and not independent search of the truth.
>
>
> Q.
>
> In third you said that your mission is to cause doubt, don’t you think that
> this isn’t polite? It means that you only cause confusion. I strongly
> believed that you talk about and believe in unity and peace while confusion
> is what is against it. I hope that you will be able to explain your theory
> of doubt.
>
> A.
> Teaching people to doubt is not impolite. Teaching them to have faith is
> impolite. We come from a religious culture that has all its priorities
> upside down.
>
> What is faith? Faith is belief in something without evidence. Once you have
> the evidence it is no more belief but knowledge. For example, there are
> people who believe in the Bigfoot. The Bigfoot is said to be a human-like
> animal living in North America. There is not enough evidence of the
> existence of such creature, yet some believe that it exists. If this belief
> is strong it becomes faith.
>
> But what will happen if we actually find such creature? Do you say that you
> “believe” that Bigfoot exists? No, at that time you “know” that it exists.
> Knowledge is based on facts. Belief is based on suppositions and lack of
> facts. Primitive people invented fables and gods and believed in them. They
> built religions around them. Even today some people believe that snakes are
> gods, some believe in cows, some believe that rats are the spirits of their
> ancestors, others believe that a black meteorite is fallen from heaven and
> therefore must be worshipped. Muslims believe that Muhammad split the moon,
> they believe that he performed Vudoo as soon as he was born and started to
> praise Allah. Jews believe that Moses parted the Red Sea and Christians
> believe that Jesus rouse from the dead and ascended to heaven. All of these
> religious people believe that Noah collected all the living animals in his
> ark while the whole earth was flooded for 40 days. They don’t doubt the
> absurdity of these beliefs. How could the polar bear go to Canaan? Who
> informed the Australian Kangaroos to head to Middle East? How these animals
> got there? All these stories are absurd. There is no evidence for any of
> them, yet people believe in them, because belief does not require evidence.
>
> You mentioned Mi’arj. Is this scientific? If God is supposed to be
> omnipresent, why Muhammad had to go somewhere else to meet him? Is Jerusalem
> the gateway to Heaven? If Muhammad traveled on a winged steed in one night
> to get to heaven then the heaven must be a physical place close to Earth.
> You cannot travel out side the Earth’s atmosphere with wings. Wings will
> only take you were there is air. With so many mapping, air travels satellite
> photos why we haven’t find this heaven? If heaven is not a physical place
> why Muhammad needed the winged steed? If Allah was behind the curtain then
> god cannot be omnipresent. An omnipresent god cannot be behind, in front,
> under or over anything. He is everywhere. This whole story is so naïf that
> it is mind boggling anyone still believe in it. But faith blinds. If someone
> said a similar story about someone else, no Muslim would believe it, but
> since it is about Muhammad, all lies are truth. The bigger the lie, the
> better it is.
>
> The charlatans calling themselves prophets wanted to keep people ignorant.
> They did not have our interest in their heart. They were a bunch of liars
> and impostors. They kept telling you it is not up to you to test God, but
> God must test you. They praised people for believing without questioning.
> The stronger was this belief, the better it was. Of course it was better for
> them, because people did not dare to question them and expose their lies.
> Now that we are mature, we have to ask these questions. We have to become
> skeptic and doubt whatever we were told and accepted as true. This does not
> mean to reject everything. It means we should ask for facts and stop
> believing things for which we have no evidence. It’s time to “know” not to
> “believe”. Doubt is the path to knowledge. If you don’t doubt you don’t ask
> and if you don’t ask you’ll not learn. The world owes to men and women who
> doubted. We owe to Galileo to Copernicus to Newton, to Darwin, to Einstein
> and to all those who doubted what they were told and found the facts. Now we
> no more BELIEVE that the Earth is flat but we KNOW that it is round.
>
> [This subject is explained in more detail under the section FREETHINKING]
>
> Q.
> Also if your mission is to pull people out of the religion then you must not
> leave then in some pathless way, you must guide them to some place, some
> religion, some destiny and some understand able God, to some laws to be
> followed and to some code of conducts to be followed for life. And your laws
> must also explain ones destiny not until death but onwards.
>
> A.
> Truth is pathless. If I present myself as the path, then I am an impostor.
> It is not up to me to be the spiritual guide for others and it would be a
> mistake if anyone take me as such, follow me blindly and imitate me. We
> humans are all created equal. We are all endowed with reason. We can put our
> heads together and find the truth helping each other, but it would be a
> mistake to take someone as our guru and follow him. No man is infallible.
> Those who are honest acknowledge their limitations and those who do not, who
> claim to be from a deity that no one except them can see and hear, are
> impostors and charlatans. The substitute to religion is not yet another
> religion. That would be replacing ignorance with another ignorance. As long
> as people expect another person to guide them, there will be swindlers who
> will come forth pretending to be the guide and take them for a ride.
>
> Humans do not need another human for guidance. We have to be our own guides.
> We have to follow the Golden Rule. There lies our source of guidance. “Do
> not do to others what you do not expect others do to you”. This is the
> eternal truth. From this source we can get all the guidance we need.
>
> Q.
> Then you believe that these God, Allah and Yahweh are out dated, what about
> the researches that goes on (scientific), which proves the religious
> transcripts to be true. As I was a Muslim and so is my family I studied
> number of books that proved each and every Ayah of Quran to be
> scientifically right. For an example see below:
>
> Prove of Gravitation:
> O company of jinn and men, if ye have power to penetrate (all) regions of
> the heavens and the earth; then penetrate (them)! Ye will never penetrate
> them save with (Our) sanction. (Q. 53: 33)
>
> A.
> There is no real research showing that god of the Quran and Bible is
> scientific. What you refer to is pseudo-science. It is ignorance and
> misinformation imparted in scientific language. Please go to the section
> dedicated to Quran in my site and read the articles that speak about Quran
> and science. I am not going to repeat this subject because it is explained
> exhaustively. However if after reading those articles you still disagree and
> want to refute me, I will be glad to address your specific points. I may be
> able to answer or I may accept your views.
>
> Just to make a quick note: Is jinn mentioned in the above verse scientific?
> If everything else in Quran was right just this belief in jinn cast doubt on
> the “divine origin” of this book. What would you think of a scientist who
> talks to you of Santa Clause as if he was a real person? Now apart from
> that, why in the world you think this absurd and obtuse verse is the proof
> of the Gravitation? Religious people see what they want to see. This is
> faith.
>
>
> As for your criticism of Jonathan Baron’s definition of Rational Thinking, I
> am not familiar with his works and cannot comment.
>
> Q.
> Do you believe in a God or multiple gods?
>
> A.
> I do not believe in any God as a being. I believe in the Single Principle
> underlying the creation. This Single Principle is not the same god of the
> theists. It is a non-being. Please read my article Life Beyond and the
> Single Principle in the section dedicated to the discussion of God.
>
> Q.
> Now towards proving my point. If you don’t believe on a religion, then you
> should not even believe on the existence of God. Because I don’t think that
> going through the intellectual maturity man came to know God, once in for
> while. According to me, he must have questioned someone, and someone might
> have said, God.
>
> A.
> The notion of God has been evolved from old myths. This has been a gradual
> process. It is an invention of human imagination and there is no evidence to
> its existence. It’s just like the belief in Santa Clause. Some one must have
> started this fairy tale and it grew. Allah is the same as Al Illah Il or El
> was the supreme deity of the pantheon Sumerians. En in Sumerian language is
> the definitive article like Al Arabic and The in English. So Enlil (En Lil)
> in Sumerian is Allah (Al Il ah) in Arabic. The H at the end is Arabization.
> Allah was not introduced by Muhammad. It existed as the supreme god between
> 360 gods in Mecca. The wife of Enlil was Enlat. The wife of Allah was Allat.
> Later people said it was his daughter and Muhammad denied that he had any
> daughters. People did not record their legends, so by going from mouth to
> mouth it kept changing. The same happened among the Jews. Yahweh who was
> originally the son of El or Elyon and ended up merging with his father.
>
> These gods are myths. Gradually people became more sophisticated and could
> not accept several gods so they synthesized them together. There is as much
> evidence for the existence of God as there is for the existence of Santa. If
> you want to be a believer, it is up to you. Belief, as I said, is acceptance
> of something without evidence. You can accept anything without evidence and
> that is your choice. My job is to teach people how to be skeptic, how to
> question, how to doubt and how to not accept anything without evidence. This
> is my definition of Rational Thinking. If you still think faith is superior
> to doubt, then continue believing. Just remember that we owe our
> civilization to men who doubted not to those who believed.
>
> Who do you think is superior, ArRazi, Ibn Sina, Ibn Rushd who doubted and
> were called heretics or Ghazali, Bukhari and Muslim (not to mention Khomeini
> and Mullah Umar of Afghanistan)? The latter may be important for Muslims.
> But as Islam’s glory fades, so these men of faith will be forgotten. Razi,
> Sina and Ibn Rushd will be remembered forever for their great contribution
> to the world. These people did not believe in Islam but they put their trust
> in science and facts. They doubted the validity of the garbage that was
> given to them and therefore became the giants that they became. Under the
> section Freethinking, I have an article called Freethinkers of Islam. You
> may like to take a look at it.
>
> Q.
> As for Yahweh, the Lord, He is believed to be very loving to His creatures,
> how could He kill them all, when He loves them?
>
> A.
> I think you should read the Bible. I am sure you will not be saying this if
> you read that book. If you don’t have time, just read Joshua. This is a
> small chapter. No one who has read Bible would say such thing.
>
>
> Q.
> You think that people use religion. Of course they do, but not everyone.
>
> A.
> Good and bad people exist everywhere. My fight is against bigotry and
> fanaticism. Religion is the source of bigotry and fanaticism. People who are
> inclined to do evil, find justification for their acts in the cruel
> teachings of their religion and the good people cannot stop them because
> they can produce verses from their holy books and silence any opposition.
> That is why fundamentalism always wins. Quran is full of mandates to kill
> the unbelievers and hate them. (See the collection of the Quranic verses
> called Quran Teaches). That is why we see the countries that call themselves
> Islamic and want to implement Islam are barbaric. These countries kill
> people left and right not because they are not following the teachings of
> Islam; they do so because they are following those teachings. Also my site
> is not “revolutionary”. If by revolution you mean instigating rebellion and
> uprising, that is not what I intend to do. I do not advocate violence. The
> whole rational behind my writings is because I want to make this world a
> peaceful world where all members of humankind can live together in peace,
> without one thinking of others as najis, kafir, inferior or try to subdue
> them and impose on them Jazyeh (Islamic penalty tax imposed on non-Muslims).
>
> Q.
> Do you think that man has reached a mature enough state to understand the
> origin, existence and everything about Allah/God/Lord/etc?
>
> A.
> There are some questions for which we may never find an answer. But I am a
> positive thinker and say: “never say never”! With the expansion of human
> understanding and the discovery of science, I believe that one day we may be
> able to answer many questions such as the ones you posed. [I believe so,
> because of that I have no evidence. It’s just a belief]
>
> But one thing we “Know” [we know because we can prove it] is that the
> explanation given to us by a bunch of charlatans posing as messenger of God
> is absolutely false. If you read my article Where is God and other articles
> under the same heading, you will know that such god as portrayed in the
> Quran and the Bible is a logical impossibility.
>
> I define God as the Single Principle. This is only a theory, a hypothesis. I
> am not here to deceive people like the unscrupulous quacks who pretend to be
> the messengers of God demanding total obedience, and absolute faith in their
> concoction of mumbo jumbo and threaten you with the fire of hell and the
> wrath of an imaginary god if you dare to question their absurd claims. I
> want you to think, doubt, and come up with your own understanding. Your
> understanding and my understanding will not be 100% true. But at least they
> are based on some facts that we know and the more facts we learn the more we
> understand. Our beliefs will evolve. We can exchange ideas and help each
> other to understand more. Eventually the humanity will get closer and closer
> to the truth. This is much better than having faith in a falsehood, fighting
> over it and trying to impose it on others by sword and by blind faith.
>
> Q.
> Why don’t you study Allah, according to Quran and tell me about that in more
> detail.
>
> A.
> I was born a Muslim and that was the first thing I studied. This deity is
> absurd. If you want to know why I reject Allah you have to read my article
> in the section called God. Especially the one called The Purpose of
> Creation. If still you have questions or objections, I will be more that
> happy to address them or accept your views if they are convincing.
>
> Q.
> Can you give me more information on the books “Katib al Waqidi” and
> “Tabari”?
> Well if this is true about Muhammad, then why don’t you see this
> conversation in this way that one day the dispute of LAT, OZZA, and MANAT
> will be over, and it is clear now? We see no follower of LAT, OZZA or MANAT
> today.
>
> A.
> You can order the books of Katib al Waqidi and Tabari from an Islamic
> bookstore.
>
> The issue of the three daughters of Allah is over now and so the question of
> Allah himself will be over when people start to think rationally and abandon
> blind faith.
>
>
> Q.
> And as you claimed that Muhammad was misogynist, then please I admire him on
> this thing that he provided more freedom to women then any other religion.
>
>
> A.
> One thing religious people love to do is to fool themselves. Muslims believe
> that Islam improved the status of women. This is a total lie. I have written
> an article disproving this lie. It is called Did Islam Improve the Status of
> Women? You can find it under the section dedicated to Women.
>
> The next fallacy is that Muslims compare the status of Muslim women of today
> with the status of non-Muslims of 2 or 3 thousand years ago. Even if Bible
> is unkind to women, no Jew or Christian follows those books when it comes to
> the treatment of women. Women’s rights are protected by the secular laws and
> not by religious laws. In Islamic countries, women are abused because
> Muslims cannot get rid of Shariah.
>
>
> Kind regard
>
> Ali Sina
--