Again some questions.
First of all, you must trust someone. it is not
something needed to understand religion but, it
is necessary social need. If we don’t, then we
will be trapped in different things like how you
will be loved everyone, why are you on ignore
list of people and so on. A simple example is
of teachers. Without trusting them to be right,
you will never learn to even write this what you
are doing now. You have to trust them until you
learn how to make others believe you (off course
with your knowledge). But even then this trusting
part remains necessary as you question on their
Now next thing is that I don’t believe to be child
of God. I think if He is my creator then He is
my master not my father. I think that few people
used this term to become holy and gain control
over each and every life form. This also served
to them as licensee to do what ever they want
to. Then you said that sending a messenger to
a corner of the world doesn’t make sense. But
well what do you think; there were neither any
global television networks, nor any Internet.
Religion is based on faith and faith needs no
prove. Following our parent’s religion isn’t the
biggest question. Abraham left his father’s religion
and asked him to do so, but his father didn’t
agree and asked him to leave. Just imagine Abraham’s
this act, in a place when his father used to make
the idols himself.
Now Ali, again about doubt and confusion, which
are two names of one thing. If people fall in
confusion they look for solution (just like me).
Then they find someone or something (in my case
you). Then some limits themselves while other
continue their search (what I did). But sometimes
the people who have fell in the confusion try
to interpret the thing they don’t like in a completely
new way, which is necessarily not right (like
When you criticize the religious scripts, you
first talked about worshiping cattle etc, ok.
Then of Muhammad’s miracle of splitting moon,
which is proved by some scientifically, but about
“Vudoo”, I never heard. Now how can it be scientifically
proved that one parted the sea? Sorry water is
not in talking terms with us, or human’s would
have asked it all about it. About Noah it is scientifically
proved that Earth’s water level was way much higher
and it has tremendously lowered. For just info
addition, you know how petroleum is produced underground?
You’ll find interesting links of it to Noah’s
Ark and flood story.
I can talk about Miraj, and can talk on its scientific
aspects too, but it will just increase the length
of the e-mail. If you like me to tell you more
about it, do let me know.
I don’t agree that doubt is way to knowledge.
I think that it is need that is path to knowledge.
Until you don’t need, you have no questions, and
even if you have you would ask. Galileo questioned
the traditional astronomy because he felt the
uneasiness about accepting them, therefore he
felt a need to investigate himself and let everyone
be aware of it.
Sorry again, but have got some objections. Truth
is the easiest path; it is the straightest path.
Following it, you never need second thoughts,
and you never have to make sure out of anything.
Then you said that we all are created equal. By
the way, by whom the creation you are talking
about. You have often quoted me things already
said by Muhammad. Islam first introduced the equal
creation phenomina. Please avoid such, as you
don’t believe on them. And again you said that
we need no guidance from any human. But as far
as my study suggests, first it’s your parents
whose guidance you want, like how to walk, talk,
sleep and act. Then its teachers whose help is
needed in studies and so on. Or simply our life
is filled with guides. And have you ever seen
a guide at a museum or at a historical place,
you must consider them as wrong, right??
You believe in science, and there is a term in
biology called cells. They are the most unit constituents
of any living being. Long before it was proved
to exist, it was accepted even then to exist,
therefore, some people believed on a theory while
some had faith on it. Then due to modern equipment
scientist actually proved their existence and
bang, it became a fact. But what do we get, a
fact was widely accepted when it was even theory
and just mere belief and faith of few? The cells
when were believed and even before that, didn’t
just ran away or vanished, and returned when they
became fact. They were there as before, but just
they were not visible. The same is applicable
in that Ayah, the penetration from the regions
of the earth mean to fly. Penetration is not
natural for human’s like for the birds. By the
heaven it means “Gravitational Sphere”. Going
beyond it doesn’t causes the gravity to finish
but it becomes so less that even can be neglected.
This region is 400 miles above the surface of
the Earth and is also called “Micro-gravity
Penetrating through the earth: Today we see
helicopters and airplanes flying. What they
do is that they push the air down, causing a
resultive force, pulling them up. When a helicopter
starts to fly it don’t do it immediately, it
takes some time, until the speed of wing rotation
gets fast enough to push them up. And the airplane
taxi on runway before take-off to get enough
engine speed, enough to support their weight.
This speed required is called escape speed.
This is specifically defined as “ the required
force by a material object to escape through
the Gravitational field”. Same is with the mechanism
of rockets, meant to take war heads, or to the
trip to the space.
And just for addition of info, the escape speed
from the earth is 11.2 km/second, for moon 2.38
km/second, Ceres (asteroids) 0.64 km/second,
for sun 618 km/second, for Sirius (white dwarf)
5200 km/second and for a neutron star it is
approximately 200,000 km/second.
Now just re-compare what Allah said and what
the modern science says. Isn’t this the scientifically
prove of this Ayah, that Allah asks man and
jinn to escape if they can, all the vain it
will be, if they do it with using sufficient
still want to hear about your definition of
Rational thinking in detail, not a line on proving
doubt and confusion to be the solution to all
of our problems. I also want to discuss the
single principle but sorry, the article will
just got lengthier, or too lengthy.
Ok you sometimes exaggerate. And why are you
using Santa Clause too much, let’s leave the
old man alone J. Ali, El and Il theory was intrusting
but as you said it was myth then I just like
reading them and that’s all. Just like one of
Ram and abduction of his wife.
To me life becomes cool as it is meant to be
when you starts to believe. You start believing
in your family, in your friends and ultimately
in the end even on your self. Ar-Razi, IbnSina
etc, will indeed be known around the world for
good but Bukhari and Muslim, I don’t think that
they did anything bad. They were like us, they
questioned Allah and Muhammad, and lucky they
that they learned to believe. And don’t worry
I don’t like Mullahs of Afghanistan. I don’t
even consider them Muslims; they are some one
in there own category. Their hands are filled
with blood of many innocent people. But you
said, Islam’s glory will fade. I think it is
reverse; Islam is the world’s fastest spreading
non-Christian religion (according to Guinness
Book of World Record).
Ok! I don’t have much knowledge of the Bible,
but I have read the Old Testament. Also do you
know where online I can find Joshua?
Also I want you to discuss Quranic Ayahs with
me, ask me about anyone you like, I will be
able to satisfy you.
At one place you answered my question and said
that we might never find answer to our questions
as you aren’t certain about it. But how you
can ask others to follow you when you aren’t
sure about it, yourself.
As you talk about scientific reasoning too much,
do you know that you don’t only have to prove
some theory wrong experimentally but you also
have to present/submit you own alternative solution
or the corrected theory. And most common example
is Hutchison Effect.
A question for you: DO YOU WANT A SECULAR WORLD?
OR DO YOU WANT THE RELIGIONS TO MODIFY?
At another place in article and at your website
you talked about abusing Women under Islam.
Come on, these are just illiterate people, or
people who are under the influence of those
people who “misuse religion” do so. In Islam,
if some one finds his wife to be of bad character
he is asked to leave her, and if he has to punish
her it shouldn’t be harder then hitting with
MUSWAAK. And we all know MASWAAK doesn’t hurt.
Ali now a major change in policy announcement.
I have decided to discuss all this with you
in a new way, as I have found a way to put an
end to my confusion. I have decided to discuss
from now on as a Muslim, while you do as you
want. We will discuss on the policy of “convince
or be convinced”. In the end if I convince you
then you might join Islam again and if you win
then vice versa. This will result in long term
satisfaction on both sides.
I hope that you agree.
From: "Ali Sina" <email@example.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 03:31:55
Subject: Re: I came up with some questions:)
> Dear Usman.
> Thanks again for your email. I will answer
only those questions of you that
> are new and will refer you to the articles
where they have already been
> In first Para, you mentioned that we should
not follow any human being, and
> we must choose our own way. Don’t you think
that these humans who claims to
> be prophets and so on, have spent their
whole life in search of the truth.
> Don’t you think it is good if we choose
one among them and follow his words
> and then build our life on this foundation!
For example determining and
> studying religion is a full time job, people
spend their whole life solely
> in this. Now if Humans have to study it
only, then who will advance in other
> fields; like of science and so on.
> It is our responsibility to find the truth
on our own and never rely on
> another person for that. Even if you want
to follow someone blindly,
> trusting his or her decisions, you have
to make sure that this person is a
> true guide and not a charlatan. People
fail to do that. They simply rely on
> the guru of their parents. Naturally since
truth cannot be more than one,
> from among thousands of ways, philosophies
and religions at most only one
> can be true and the rest are wrong. How
do you know which one is the true
> one? You have to investigate all of them,
for which you need few thousands
> of years.
> What I propose is a shift of paradigm.
Man should not look unto another
> human being for guidance, but be inquisitive,
question, reason. In other
> words doubt and gradually find the truth.
> Logically it does not make sense that god
send a messenger in a corner of
> the world without the rest of the world
having the chance to learn about it
> immediately. If we are all children of
God we all should have equal chance
> for salvation.
> Also it make no sense that god make his
message so confusing and illogical.
> All these so-called holy books are replete
with scientific incongruencies,
> errors and absurdities. A host of apologists
are trying desperately to
> reinterpret the so-called “difficulties”
in their holy books. Shouldn’t the
> message of God be simple and clear to understand?
If there are so many sects
> in the same religion, doesn’t it prove
that the holy book of that religion
> is not clear for everyone to understand
the same truth as God intended? Go
> to the section dedicated to Quran in my
site and read any one of the
> articles, especially the Contradictions
in Quran. See how this book is
> obtuse and contradictory. Could it be that
the maker of this universe be so
> ignorant as it appears to be in Quran?
(Bible is not better).
> The facts that people follow the religion
of their fathers is proof that
> their faith is based on imitation and not
independent search of the truth.
> In third you said that your mission is
to cause doubt, don’t you think that
> this isn’t polite? It means that you only
cause confusion. I strongly
> believed that you talk about and believe
in unity and peace while confusion
> is what is against it. I hope that you
will be able to explain your theory
> of doubt.
> Teaching people to doubt is not impolite.
Teaching them to have faith is
> impolite. We come from a religious culture
that has all its priorities
> upside down.
> What is faith? Faith is belief in something
without evidence. Once you have
> the evidence it is no more belief but knowledge.
For example, there are
> people who believe in the Bigfoot. The
Bigfoot is said to be a human-like
> animal living in North America. There is
not enough evidence of the
> existence of such creature, yet some believe
that it exists. If this belief
> is strong it becomes faith.
> But what will happen if we actually find
such creature? Do you say that you
> “believe” that Bigfoot exists? No, at that
time you “know” that it exists.
> Knowledge is based on facts. Belief is
based on suppositions and lack of
> facts. Primitive people invented fables
and gods and believed in them. They
> built religions around them. Even today
some people believe that snakes are
> gods, some believe in cows, some believe
that rats are the spirits of their
> ancestors, others believe that a black
meteorite is fallen from heaven and
> therefore must be worshipped. Muslims believe
that Muhammad split the moon,
> they believe that he performed Vudoo as
soon as he was born and started to
> praise Allah. Jews believe that Moses parted
the Red Sea and Christians
> believe that Jesus rouse from the dead
and ascended to heaven. All of these
> religious people believe that Noah collected
all the living animals in his
> ark while the whole earth was flooded for
40 days. They don’t doubt the
> absurdity of these beliefs. How could the
polar bear go to Canaan? Who
> informed the Australian Kangaroos to head
to Middle East? How these animals
> got there? All these stories are absurd.
There is no evidence for any of
> them, yet people believe in them, because
belief does not require evidence.
> You mentioned Mi’arj. Is this scientific?
If God is supposed to be
> omnipresent, why Muhammad had to go somewhere
else to meet him? Is Jerusalem
> the gateway to Heaven? If Muhammad traveled
on a winged steed in one night
> to get to heaven then the heaven must be
a physical place close to Earth.
> You cannot travel out side the Earth’s
atmosphere with wings. Wings will
> only take you were there is air. With so
many mapping, air travels satellite
> photos why we haven’t find this heaven?
If heaven is not a physical place
> why Muhammad needed the winged steed? If
Allah was behind the curtain then
> god cannot be omnipresent. An omnipresent
god cannot be behind, in front,
> under or over anything. He is everywhere.
This whole story is so naïf that
> it is mind boggling anyone still believe
in it. But faith blinds. If someone
> said a similar story about someone else,
no Muslim would believe it, but
> since it is about Muhammad, all lies are
truth. The bigger the lie, the
> better it is.
> The charlatans calling themselves prophets
wanted to keep people ignorant.
> They did not have our interest in their
heart. They were a bunch of liars
> and impostors. They kept telling you it
is not up to you to test God, but
> God must test you. They praised people
for believing without questioning.
> The stronger was this belief, the better
it was. Of course it was better for
> them, because people did not dare to question
them and expose their lies.
> Now that we are mature, we have to ask
these questions. We have to become
> skeptic and doubt whatever we were told
and accepted as true. This does not
> mean to reject everything. It means we
should ask for facts and stop
> believing things for which we have no evidence.
It’s time to “know” not to
> “believe”. Doubt is the path to knowledge.
If you don’t doubt you don’t ask
> and if you don’t ask you’ll not learn.
The world owes to men and women who
> doubted. We owe to Galileo to Copernicus
to Newton, to Darwin, to Einstein
> and to all those who doubted what they
were told and found the facts. Now we
> no more BELIEVE that the Earth is flat
but we KNOW that it is round.
> [This subject is explained in more detail
under the section FREETHINKING]
> Also if your mission is to pull people
out of the religion then you must not
> leave then in some pathless way, you must
guide them to some place, some
> religion, some destiny and some understand
able God, to some laws to be
> followed and to some code of conducts to
be followed for life. And your laws
> must also explain ones destiny not until
death but onwards.
> Truth is pathless. If I present myself
as the path, then I am an impostor.
> It is not up to me to be the spiritual
guide for others and it would be a
> mistake if anyone take me as such, follow
me blindly and imitate me. We
> humans are all created equal. We are all
endowed with reason. We can put our
> heads together and find the truth helping
each other, but it would be a
> mistake to take someone as our guru and
follow him. No man is infallible.
> Those who are honest acknowledge their
limitations and those who do not, who
> claim to be from a deity that no one except
them can see and hear, are
> impostors and charlatans. The substitute
to religion is not yet another
> religion. That would be replacing ignorance
with another ignorance. As long
> as people expect another person to guide
them, there will be swindlers who
> will come forth pretending to be the guide
and take them for a ride.
> Humans do not need another human for guidance.
We have to be our own guides.
> We have to follow the Golden Rule. There
lies our source of guidance. “Do
> not do to others what you do not expect
others do to you”. This is the
> eternal truth. From this source we can
get all the guidance we need.
> Then you believe that these God, Allah
and Yahweh are out dated, what about
> the researches that goes on (scientific),
which proves the religious
> transcripts to be true. As I was a Muslim
and so is my family I studied
> number of books that proved each and every
Ayah of Quran to be
> scientifically right. For an example see
> Prove of Gravitation:
> O company of jinn and men, if ye have power
to penetrate (all) regions of
> the heavens and the earth; then penetrate
(them)! Ye will never penetrate
> them save with (Our) sanction. (Q. 53:
> There is no real research showing that
god of the Quran and Bible is
> scientific. What you refer to is pseudo-science.
It is ignorance and
> misinformation imparted in scientific language.
Please go to the section
> dedicated to Quran in my site and read
the articles that speak about Quran
> and science. I am not going to repeat this
subject because it is explained
> exhaustively. However if after reading
those articles you still disagree and
> want to refute me, I will be glad to address
your specific points. I may be
> able to answer or I may accept your views.
> Just to make a quick note: Is jinn mentioned
in the above verse scientific?
> If everything else in Quran was right just
this belief in jinn cast doubt on
> the “divine origin” of this book. What
would you think of a scientist who
> talks to you of Santa Clause as if he was
a real person? Now apart from
> that, why in the world you think this absurd
and obtuse verse is the proof
> of the Gravitation? Religious people see
what they want to see. This is
> As for your criticism of Jonathan Baron’s
definition of Rational Thinking, I
> am not familiar with his works and cannot
> Do you believe in a God or multiple gods?
> I do not believe in any God as a being.
I believe in the Single Principle
> underlying the creation. This Single Principle
is not the same god of the
> theists. It is a non-being. Please read
my article Life Beyond and the
> Single Principle in the section dedicated
to the discussion of God.
> Now towards proving my point. If you don’t
believe on a religion, then you
> should not even believe on the existence
of God. Because I don’t think that
> going through the intellectual maturity
man came to know God, once in for
> while. According to me, he must have questioned
someone, and someone might
> have said, God.
> The notion of God has been evolved from
old myths. This has been a gradual
> process. It is an invention of human imagination
and there is no evidence to
> its existence. It’s just like the belief
in Santa Clause. Some one must have
> started this fairy tale and it grew. Allah
is the same as Al Illah Il or El
> was the supreme deity of the pantheon Sumerians.
En in Sumerian language is
> the definitive article like Al Arabic and
The in English. So Enlil (En Lil)
> in Sumerian is Allah (Al Il ah) in Arabic.
The H at the end is Arabization.
> Allah was not introduced by Muhammad. It
existed as the supreme god between
> 360 gods in Mecca. The wife of Enlil was
Enlat. The wife of Allah was Allat.
> Later people said it was his daughter and
Muhammad denied that he had any
> daughters. People did not record their
legends, so by going from mouth to
> mouth it kept changing. The same happened
among the Jews. Yahweh who was
> originally the son of El or Elyon and ended
up merging with his father.
> These gods are myths. Gradually people
became more sophisticated and could
> not accept several gods so they synthesized
them together. There is as much
> evidence for the existence of God as there
is for the existence of Santa. If
> you want to be a believer, it is up to
you. Belief, as I said, is acceptance
> of something without evidence. You can
accept anything without evidence and
> that is your choice. My job is to teach
people how to be skeptic, how to
> question, how to doubt and how to not accept
anything without evidence. This
> is my definition of Rational Thinking.
If you still think faith is superior
> to doubt, then continue believing. Just
remember that we owe our
> civilization to men who doubted not to
those who believed.
> Who do you think is superior, ArRazi, Ibn
Sina, Ibn Rushd who doubted and
> were called heretics or Ghazali, Bukhari
and Muslim (not to mention Khomeini
> and Mullah Umar of Afghanistan)? The latter
may be important for Muslims.
> But as Islam’s glory fades, so these men
of faith will be forgotten. Razi,
> Sina and Ibn Rushd will be remembered forever
for their great contribution
> to the world. These people did not believe
in Islam but they put their trust
> in science and facts. They doubted the
validity of the garbage that was
> given to them and therefore became the
giants that they became. Under the
> section Freethinking, I have an article
called Freethinkers of Islam. You
> may like to take a look at it.
> As for Yahweh, the Lord, He is believed
to be very loving to His creatures,
> how could He kill them all, when He loves
> I think you should read the Bible. I am
sure you will not be saying this if
> you read that book. If you don’t have time,
just read Joshua. This is a
> small chapter. No one who has read Bible
would say such thing.
> You think that people use religion. Of
course they do, but not everyone.
> Good and bad people exist everywhere. My
fight is against bigotry and
> fanaticism. Religion is the source of bigotry
and fanaticism. People who are
> inclined to do evil, find justification
for their acts in the cruel
> teachings of their religion and the good
people cannot stop them because
> they can produce verses from their holy
books and silence any opposition.
> That is why fundamentalism always wins.
Quran is full of mandates to kill
> the unbelievers and hate them. (See the
collection of the Quranic verses
> called Quran Teaches). That is why we see
the countries that call themselves
> Islamic and want to implement Islam are
barbaric. These countries kill
> people left and right not because they
are not following the teachings of
> Islam; they do so because they are following
those teachings. Also my site
> is not “revolutionary”. If by revolution
you mean instigating rebellion and
> uprising, that is not what I intend to
do. I do not advocate violence. The
> whole rational behind my writings is because
I want to make this world a
> peaceful world where all members of humankind
can live together in peace,
> without one thinking of others as najis,
kafir, inferior or try to subdue
> them and impose on them Jazyeh (Islamic
penalty tax imposed on non-Muslims).
> Do you think that man has reached a mature
enough state to understand the
> origin, existence and everything about
> There are some questions for which we may
never find an answer. But I am a
> positive thinker and say: “never say never”!
With the expansion of human
> understanding and the discovery of science,
I believe that one day we may be
> able to answer many questions such as the
ones you posed. [I believe so,
> because of that I have no evidence. It’s
just a belief]
> But one thing we “Know” [we know because
we can prove it] is that the
> explanation given to us by a bunch of charlatans
posing as messenger of God
> is absolutely false. If you read my article
Where is God and other articles
> under the same heading, you will know that
such god as portrayed in the
> Quran and the Bible is a logical impossibility.
> I define God as the Single Principle. This
is only a theory, a hypothesis. I
> am not here to deceive people like the
unscrupulous quacks who pretend to be
> the messengers of God demanding total obedience,
and absolute faith in their
> concoction of mumbo jumbo and threaten
you with the fire of hell and the
> wrath of an imaginary god if you dare to
question their absurd claims. I
> want you to think, doubt, and come up with
your own understanding. Your
> understanding and my understanding will
not be 100% true. But at least they
> are based on some facts that we know and
the more facts we learn the more we
> understand. Our beliefs will evolve. We
can exchange ideas and help each
> other to understand more. Eventually the
humanity will get closer and closer
> to the truth. This is much better than
having faith in a falsehood, fighting
> over it and trying to impose it on others
by sword and by blind faith.
> Why don’t you study Allah, according to
Quran and tell me about that in more
> I was born a Muslim and that was the first
thing I studied. This deity is
> absurd. If you want to know why I reject
Allah you have to read my article
> in the section called God. Especially the
one called The Purpose of
> Creation. If still you have questions or
objections, I will be more that
> happy to address them or accept your views
if they are convincing.
> Can you give me more information on the
books “Katib al Waqidi” and
> Well if this is true about Muhammad, then
why don’t you see this
> conversation in this way that one day the
dispute of LAT, OZZA, and MANAT
> will be over, and it is clear now? We see
no follower of LAT, OZZA or MANAT
> You can order the books of Katib al Waqidi
and Tabari from an Islamic
> The issue of the three daughters of Allah
is over now and so the question of
> Allah himself will be over when people
start to think rationally and abandon
> blind faith.
> And as you claimed that Muhammad was misogynist,
then please I admire him on
> this thing that he provided more freedom
to women then any other religion.
> One thing religious people love to do is
to fool themselves. Muslims believe
> that Islam improved the status of women.
This is a total lie. I have written
> an article disproving this lie. It is called
Did Islam Improve the Status of
> Women? You can find it under the section
dedicated to Women.
> The next fallacy is that Muslims compare
the status of Muslim women of today
> with the status of non-Muslims of 2 or
3 thousand years ago. Even if Bible
> is unkind to women, no Jew or Christian
follows those books when it comes to
> the treatment of women. Women’s rights
are protected by the secular laws and
> not by religious laws. In Islamic countries,
women are abused because
> Muslims cannot get rid of Shariah.
> Kind regard
> Ali Sina