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Thu, 14 Jun 2001
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 His reply:

From: "Ali Sina" <afreethinker@hotmail.com> [Save Address] [Block Sender]
To: islami@consultant.com
Cc: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Took an easy way in your inbox....
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 04:08:17
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Dear Mr. Malik Usman,

In your email, you invited Mr. Avijit Roy and myself to come to Pakistan and
assured us of our safety. May I ask you few questions before answering the
rest of the points in your email? Please answer to all of them.


1- Who are you and what is your authority to protect our safety if we accept
your invitation? What is your guarantee behind your word?
2- Why a debate on line is not enough for you and why do you want to meet us
in Pakistan?
3- How can we trust your word? The first email you sent me you pretended to
be a Muslim dissident trying to get away from Islam asking for my advise.
Only in your fourth email you revealed your true identity, which is a Muslim
hardliner. How do you expect Mr. Roy and myself put out lives in the hands
of a man who has a history of lying and deceiving? How do you expect us to
trust a liar with our lives?
4- You also bragged of being a moderate Muslim and said any other Muslim
would have traced me and would have killed me for what I say. This shows
that you know what is the teaching of Islam in respect of the apostates. Are
you saying that you are willing to break Allah’s commandment just to keep up
your word with us? What is more important to you? Your words of Allah’s
word?
5- Despite the fact that I demonstrated to you that Noah’s ark, Mi’raj,
splitting the moon and jinn are absurdities, you still claim that they are
scientific facts. Apparently your definition of science and rational
thinking and mine are completely distinct. In one of your emails you said
let us continue until one convinces the other. I am not interested to
convince anyone. My job is to expose the truth of Islam. It is up to people
to make their minds. I am not part of any religion or organization nor have
I started, or will I start one. I am not looking for recruits. And honestly
I see no hope in you becoming a rational thinker any time soon. May I ask
you why do you want to continue this debate? Do you really believe that I am
going to accept that Muhammad split the moon? That somehow during the time
of Noah the waters in the Earth increased 10 fold to cover the tip of
Everest and then evaporated into the thin air? Do you think that if you
insist, I will finally accept the story of Mi’raj? Do you believe that one
day I will be convinced that the jinns are real beings that climb on each
other’s shoulder’s to eavesdrop the conversation of the Exalted assembly and
that the stars are missiles that Allah throws at them to scare them? You
still did not tell me how the South American sloth, the Australian Kangaroo
or the polar bear were informed about the flood and how they made their way
to Canaan? You still did not tell me how Noah and a handful of his family
members could collect ALL the animals of the world when even up to this day
all the scientists of the world have not been able to collect the names of
all the species of the animals?

Please do answer all these questions before we can continue with the rest of
your questions.


Regards,

Ali Sina


--

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 Samir Nandy's reply:

From: "Samir Nandy" <samir_nandy@hotmail.com> [Save Address] [Block Sender]
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Cc:
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Took an easy way in your inbox....
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:58:26 -0400
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Dear Mr. Sina

My name is Samir Nandy and I am originally from Calcutta, India now residing
in Washington DC.  I was introduced to your web site by Mr. Jamal Hasan, who
is a fellow Bengali, and a friend.

I am writing to let you know that I appreciate your efforts in educating
these bigoted idiots. However, it has been my experience from the News
groups that people like these will never participate in any form of rational
argument, nor will they respond in a coherent manner.  I honestly believe
that engaging into any kind of discussion with people like Malik Usman is
sheer waste of time.

On a different note, I do consider you as an intellectual giant, and it is
refreshing to read your articles.  I have visited your web site and have
found a wealth of information there.  I thank you from the bottom of my
heart for your dedication and perseverance.

Born a Hindu, I now flip flop between being an agnostic or an atheist,
depending on my frame of mind.  I truly believe that all religion were
created by human beings to oppress and subjugate the masses.  In the worst
possible scenario, even if God were to exist, there is no way that religion
can be God's teachings.  Therefore, I consider all people who peddle or even
adhere to any single religious denomination, as bigots.  There are far too
many problems in the world for people to work together and solve at least
some of the most pressing ones.  Unfortunately, most of the people prefer to
follow the path of divine enlightment, ignoring the cause-effect
relationships of all human activities.

It is a shame that most people are not only gullible, they are also smug
enough to try to rationalize all phenomenon in light of creationism as
preached by the semitic religions.  Even Hinduism depicts the earth to be a
flat land resting on the back of a giant turtle!  Why is it so hard for
people to accept that in a habitable environment Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen
atoms and molecules can combine to form living organisms?  Why are people so
hung up on the concept of "soul"?  Don't animals and lower forms of animals
have souls too?  Perhaps they misinterpret intellect and ability to
rationalize as the "voice of conscience" arising from the so called non
existent "soul".

I am sorry that I got detracted, but in a sense this will give you some idea
why I appreciate free thinking.

With warmest regards,

Samir Nandy

===================================

>From: "Ali Sina" <afreethinker@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>To: islami@consultant.com
>CC: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [mukto-mona] Re: Took an easy way in your inbox....
>Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 04:08:17
>
>Dear Mr. Malik Usman,
>
>In your email, you invited Mr. Avijit Roy and myself to come to Pakistan
>and
>assured us of our safety. May I ask you few questions before answering the
>rest of the points in your email? Please answer to all of them.


............ rest deleted for brevity.

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 His reply to Samir:

From: "Ali Sina" <afreethinker@hotmail.com> [Save Address] [Block Sender]
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Cc:
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Took an easy way in your inbox....
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 07:51:37
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Dear Samir,

If truth is bitter lies are sweet. The lie that you said about me being an
intellectual giant is a huge lie but it was sweet and I thank you for that.
Too bad I have seen the bottomless pit of my ignorance and cannot revel in
that lie for too long. :-) However undeserved compliments are like gifts. We
treasure gifts more than what we rightfully earn.

I agree with you that some people will never be able to think rationally.
This gentleman, Malik Usman, keeps asking what is “rational thinking” in
every email. Do we really have to explain what is rational thinking? See for
example in his last email to me, he invited Avijit Roy and myself to go to
Pakistan. Why we have to meet face to face when we can so easily communicate
through email, pondering over our words without letting emotions get in the
way?

In his first email to me, Mr. Usman said that he does not believe in Islam
and for that matter he has problem with his friends and family and thinks I
am his “solution”. I thought that as a phony email especially coming from
someone whose email reads islami@consultant.com yet I respectfully told him
that family ties and friendships are sacred and it is better that he avoid
religious talk with his loved ones. I also told him that the essence of
rational thinking is independent thinking and that means you never follow
another human being as your guru nor you ever take someone to be your
solution. I also told him that if someone went through all my writings and
after reading everything decided that I am so intelligent that he can take
me as his solution and follow me blindly, that means that I have failed. The
very purpose of this exercise is to make people doubt, find their own light
and never follow another person. We had a long conversation about the merits
of doubt and demerits of faith. The transcripts of those rather interesting
exchanges are in this link.
http://free.freespeech.org/rationalthinking/origin_of_god.htm

Suddenly however, Mr. Malik Usman retracted from him original position and
declared that from now on he wants to speak like a Muslim and his goal would
be to revert me back to Islam. To this I responded that I too am changing my
position and from now on I declare myself a messenger of God. I challenged
him to refute my claim. Mr. Usman believes that “faith does not require
proof”, so I asked him to believe in me without questioning my authority or
asking for proof. I told him that tell me all the proof the Muhammad had and
I will match or beat them. He has failed to do so.

Now he is asking Avijit Roy and myself to go to Pakistan. Does he really
take us for total idiots? Is this rational thinking?

However, people like Mr. Usman who claim to have the “scientific proof” for
Mi’raj, splitting the Moon, Noah’s ark and jinn will go where dinosaurs
went. The ignorance that we perpetuated for 1400 years is ending. Today is
the age of the Internet and the free flow of information. The day of
universal knowledge has dawned. No more can the hosts of darkness put his
light off. We need one generation, one generation and with the power of the
Internet we can wipe out the darkness of ignorance throughout the world.

You are born a Hindu. Here we have people who are born Christian, Jew,
Shiite, Sunni and who knows what else. By renouncing the religion of our
fathers and forefathers we have discovered our oneness as humanity. For how
long we can keep this hate going on? Religions cause hate, division and
disunity. If there is a God that God must be the God of love and not the God
of hate. If there is a God, that God must love the atheists who love
humankind irrespective of their creeds and not the religionists who hate the
non-believers.

I am not an atheist. I do believe in the God of Espinosa and Einstein. And I
seek God in the relationship with people, in the interaction with other
human beings. God is in the laughter of children, is in he eyes of that old
man sitting in the bench feeding the pigeons, is in the hopes of that young
miner digging through the hard coal deep in the ground. God is in the hug
you give to your spouse, in the attention you pay to your child, in the love
you give to your aging parents. There is no other god beyond the love we
have for each other.

Now that I have declared my prophethood and even had a Mi’raj, may be I
should also compose a Shahada. Well, my shadada would read something like
this. La illaha illal hobb. There is not god but Love. :-)


Take care


Ali


From: "Samir Nandy" <samir_nandy@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Took an easy way in your inbox....
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:58:26 -0400

Dear Mr. Sina

My name is Samir Nandy and I am originally from Calcutta, India now residing
in Washington DC. I was introduced to your web site by Mr. Jamal Hasan, who
is a fellow Bengali, and a friend.

I am writing to let you know that I appreciate your efforts in educating
these bigoted idiots. However, it has been my experience from the News
groups that people like these will never participate in any form of rational
argument, nor will they respond in a coherent manner. I honestly believe
that engaging into any kind of discussion with people like Malik Usman is
sheer waste of time.

On a different note, I do consider you as an intellectual giant, and it is
refreshing to read your articles. I have visited your web site and have
found a wealth of information there. I thank you from the bottom of my
heart for your dedication and perseverance.

Born a Hindu, I now flip flop between being an agnostic or an atheist,
depending on my frame of mind. I truly believe that all religion were
created by human beings to oppress and subjugate the masses. In the worst
possible scenario, even if God were to exist, there is no way that religion
can be God's teachings. Therefore, I consider all people who peddle or even
adhere to any single religious denomination, as bigots. There are far too
many problems in the world for people to work together and solve at least
some of the most pressing ones. Unfortunately, most of the people prefer to
follow the path of divine enlightment, ignoring the cause-effect
relationships of all human activities.

It is a shame that most people are not only gullible, they are also smug
enough to try to rationalize all phenomenon in light of creationism as
preached by the semitic religions. Even Hinduism depicts the earth to be a
flat land resting on the back of a giant turtle! Why is it so hard for
people to accept that in a habitable environment Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen
atoms and molecules can combine to form living organisms? Why are people so
hung up on the concept of "soul"? Don't animals and lower forms of animals
have souls too? Perhaps they misinterpret intellect and ability to
rationalize as the "voice of conscience" arising from the so called non
existent "soul".

I am sorry that I got detracted, but in a sense this will give you some idea
why I appreciate free thinking.

With warmest regards,

Samir Nandy

 

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 Gitte H's concerns:

From: "Gitte H." <mensa58@hotmail.com> [Save Address] [Block Sender]
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Cc:
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Took an easy way in your inbox....
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:10:59 -0000
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Continuosly asking the same questions is a way of keeping the opponents
(pre-)occupied - it it s well-know "debate-method" of "learned" muslims. I
have spent hrs - all in vain - trying to meet them halwway only to realize
that they very not discussing a subject but 'cornering 'me with
spam-questions such as the one we face from Malik Usman.

It is not possible to enter a dialoque with these people, I fear any attempt
is doomed to fail.

Gitte/Agnostic

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 FreePerson Smith's concerns:

From: "FreePerson Smith" <freeperson55@hotmail.com> [Save Address] [Block Sender]
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Cc:
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Took an easy way in your inbox....
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 16:08:13 -0000
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And they are always the same stupid spam arguments every time. They don't
even bother to come up with something original! They are so predictable you
can anticipate what they say and have the counter-argument all ready
beforehand. (not that they listen to the counter-argument, just go on to
another predictable spam message.)

SC

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