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Wed, 13 Jun 2001
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From: "Usman Malik" <islami@consultant.com> [Save Address] [Block Sender]
To: afreethinker@hotmail.com
Cc:
Subject: Took an easy way in your inbox....
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:55:19 +0500
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Hi Ali,
Sorry, just until 19th of this month, you might have some late replies from me, due to some personal matters. By the way, was I complaining about disclosing my messages? Well now add another thing, I certainly didn’t liked even a bit of the idea, of adding me to that mail list. You might remember in one of my first e-mails I told you that I don’t like the idea of joining a list. But still… I will soon, as soon as I get online again, unsubscribe my self from it. By the way do you know, that this action of yours, that is adding me without my consent can lead to its closure? So just a point I would like you to note, don’t try it even again. As far as Mr. Roy is concerned, I am in no way, with any problem to discuss these matters with him. But remember, only him. So therefore, next time, I wouldn’t mind if I receive reply on my e-mail from him too. By the way circulating my e-mails in a list like yours can help you a lot, therefore, even if you want to do so, do it, but keep my e-mail address out of it. Thank you for listening. Now the “real thing” follows.

Lets start from Roy’s reply. His answers were really childish. It was just like, “I eat mosquito, why do you kill it?” Now for Mr. Roy with love.
I agree that Alcohol can be used as drugs and it is, but you must keep a line between, use as an anti-depressant and as a drug. Just for addition to your information, Islam even allows to eat haram food, only and only in case that you cannot find a hilal food to eat and you are starving to death. Let me give you an example. If locus attacks your fields and destroys each and everything, Islam allows you to even eat it, to survive. I think, in that case it might be up to your standard, but it contains Vitamin C.
Then about pig. Pig is termed as “haram food”, but not a haram to live. Muslims believe that each and everything in this universe, nothing is useless. All things in this universe, enables the equilibrium and makes sure that it remains in contact. These applications can be known, or unknown.
As for the cow meat, I knew how a Hindu would feel about it, but well I agree that its use is not very good either. But also kindly note that it neither compulsory, as to Quran or as to Hadith. According to Ali (the fourth caliph), use of cow meat if exceeds one tablespoon a day (maximum) might lead to illness. By the way, if cow were so much into religion then in place of Ismaeel, Allah would have sent a cow, instead of a sheep. Mr. Roy, this might explain a lot.
Mr. Roy, do you know that people, who use cigarettes, become addicted to it. They cannot leave it, even if they want to do so. When Islam talked about wine, it said “khummar” which do not mean wine; it means anything that can cause mental unconsciousness, in other words, drug of any kind. Now for your kind knowledge, cigarettes also come in the category of drugs in some countries, and in lists of main doctors. Therefore, Islam did stop even from its usage. “And the wisdom is for those who understand”. If you like I can even let you know the exact Ayahs and Hadith, should I?
Now Ali, for you. Don’t worry, and don’t be in so much hurry, I am writing over it. And as earlier mentioned some personal matters are causing problems. Once Ali, we reach on one faith, I will like to show you some of my works too, which I like others to publish, and some of those too, which already have been. Well not exactly, I called your travel bad humor, but it was just one among them. Wait… Let me laugh once again…
As you have been felt enjoying the scientific proof of moon, thing. I have contacted some space agencies, not only NASA, but from 29 different countries, will you forward any reply I get from them. So don’t worry about that much. J
At last, you did explain the Rational Thinking. But don’t worry I wouldn’t comment on that much, as I don’ like to ask for thing again and again.
Oh about the mars, I even came to know about a man who was claiming that his picture is on Mars, now then what happened was that NASA took him away for some research. Just kidding, for the second part, first one was true.
Ali, you got to the right point, but didn’t take it right. I meant, that okay your grand father splitted the Sun, but my question was that did he claim prophecy after wards? So now it is too clear, so you might not have any problem.
It will be good if you ask a geologist. It is commonly believed theory by them that the water level used to be higher then most of the mountains, then it decreased tremendously afterwards. According to a German professor at Harbourg University, water level used to be much higher. He proved this theory after he published a research paper, as he found the rocks which belong to the Red Sea in the mountain ranges of Germany, his later research also discovered such rocks at India, from Atlantic. I cannot remember the exact name of the place in an Arabian country, which exhibits this phenomenon. But this can be proved more by the pictures of American landscape, I am sorry for not been able to produce the exact photo, but will try my level best to make it possible, as soon as possible.
Sorry, but you are wrong on stating the earth to be a close system. Earth is not a closed system, but the universe is, even though it is increasing, but still it is expanding. Okay how do you explain the, lower death rate, but increasing birth rate? Do you know what is the composition of Human body? What do you think universe was formed from? Big bang? Ok but in explosion all of the water evaporates, then how did it survived after this all. It should have been condensed into ice, of a special kind. Then why it is here then? I hope you will like to answer these non-intellectual answers. And all the above, I came to know through last mail that your rational thinking, asks scientific and logical explanation. I would really love to read your next reply, only if that answer to my these questions.
I know that my reply on Miraj would not be complete but will be quite enough. Yes Jerusalem is a gateway to heaven, as it is the first KIBLLA of Muslims. When in prayer Allah asked Muslims to turn the direction, Muhammad was told that it is because when ever you start to pray, you look at ME. Now for the steed with wings, the buraq. According to Muslims, Allah makes laws, and a lawmaker can change them without any hesitation. If Allah is the lawmaker, of that the air cannot push someone up in space, then Allah can also change them. By the way, the Miraj might be symbolic (the Buraq), what if there was, something like teleportation, or something that took place? (You know skeptism.) As I previously told you about what Moses encountered on that mountain, was to warn him, but this time, with Muhammad was a needed discussion. To understand religion, you need to be neutral. Try to look at the things from positive view too.
Have you read Surah Ar-Rahman’s Ayah 19? In which Allah says, that we have separated the water of the seas and oceans with an invisible curtain, and these are like the limits, which the water doesn’t cross. Just look at the water, it is a vast amount of thing which covers the surface of planet. We all know that water can merge with each other, as it flows. But what about now? Why in oceans and seas water doesn’t mix with each other. When Allah told this, people used to laugh at it, but now when the scientific research has reached this topic, they have agreed it to be true, and now the thing once claimed by a book, is now a fact. But well Mr. Roy will like to comment over this too? And what about you Ali, is this too p-science? Ali, this Ayah is more then clear. Do let me know your answer.
Ali, I know that you have to look at the other person’s weak points, to win… but to win a war, and are this in any way a war?? By the way, I do read your articles, and that is why I answer you, if I wouldn’t have read your letters how do you expect me writing you a reply. By the way, why I have to ask the same questions again is that you do not answer them. And I want to have answers. Let me give you an example; I asked you about rational thinking, and you answered me in your last e-mail, after I asked you more then dozens of time, see, quite simple ;)
Ali you didn’t gave the exact answer to my question of trusting a “imperfect human”. Let me explain you in detail. Those ‘imperfect doctors” were issued license, from an institute, made and run by ‘imperfect individuals/government”. Well why government? Because they are also ‘imperfect humans”, elected by ‘imperfect masses”. So how do you explain trusting a whole imperfect system? You know that they can be wrong, but you still take risk. Why? Can you explain this to me? I think this question was near to your standards of intellectualism, right????
Okay I suppose for a moment, that you are a prophet and that you have army, and you can kill me. But I have courage, I can stop you, even if I can’t I will resist. You cannot convince me and millions of people by force to be with you in your faith. You must have some quality; you must, at least to the lowest level, a personality. !!!
Yes I agree, this is some message any person leading a war would ever say. But Ali, you don’t only deny science but even history. What about badr, where Muslims were attacked when they were only 313 in number, they didn’t challenged the makkhans to come out for a war, it was against their own good. A new religion with so less people would have just vanished in such attempt that is war with thousands of enemies. What about the next war, Uhad, it was again supper imposed on Muslims, by the makkhans who wanted to take revenge of their people killed in Badr. And then what about the war of Khandak, where Muslims never wanted o have war. And to make the war impossible, they dig ditches, so to keep the enemy away from reaching the city. Even then some tried to cross it, and in self-defense, Muslims had to execute their right of living by killing their enemy. As you asked about a single war, I have mentioned three wars above, guess that they are okay to answer your questions??
You said rape??? Can you kindly give me an example?
Okay, I didn’t have time to read that article, therefore, I give you a moment of relief, I am not asking currently anything about it.
Ali I read a very beautiful thing, according to Max Weber, “science has resulted in the disenchantment of the world”. The “enchantment” of the world resulted from people relying on religion and giving magical explanations t perfectly logical, natural phenomena (Knapp 139). By the way just an addition, “science and religion are widespread, each having dogmatic believers, antagonism has resulted”. Therefore from now on, I will only give you scientific proves of Quran and Islam. And I think I have sufficient knowledge of both, sufficient enough to make a productive discussion. From now on, I will be discussing from point of view, the same as from which people like Annie Dillard, G. Richard, W. S. F. Pickering, Robert S., Thomas Meyer, etc talked in there life. And Ali, I don’t think that any of above is a Muslim, or some hardliner, fundamentalist, etc. I am sure you will like their talk, and there writing.
Ali, many points are raised from the Para, in which you talked about the percentage of Muslims. First of all, if they know that Islam is a terrorist religion then why do they stick with it? They are in Scandinavia, and no one will harm them, due to strong law and order, so why are they living with the title on their head of a terrorist religion? Don’t they have self-integrity or anything that they hate one thing, but follow it too. No one will and no one can ask them to name their children on the names of Muhammad, Ali, Usman, Omer, etc, then why do they do so? Also what forum do you think claims this, can you kindly give me a link to one? By the way, they then why do the marriage of their children with other Muslims, why don’t they get them married to non-Muslims, or the religion they like. In this way they will one day escape from the title of Islam. Don’t you think so? Okay if they are blacks of America, then what about the whites of Europe? Also did you said blacks are “resentful”?
Mr. Ali, who made the laws in the start? This law-concept was brought first from the religions. If you don’t agree ask any intellectual, who has mastered the law or something, not some of your own style (like Mr. Roy).
Ali, you argue too much about beating of women in Islam. My family is Muslim; from lets say when the Islam came to sub-continent. But I don’t know one of my relative, friend, or any other, who beats his wife, and says that it is because Islam, told him too. This beating stuff takes place where there is communication gap, lack of education and poverty. In Pakistan and India, men beat their wives, why? Because 98% of these people are jobless, drug addicts or other, they want their wives to work, to keep hem alive. What do you expect from such person, how much religion he can possibly know? I am sorry if you say such thing on basis of a personal accident. By the way, bikini? My sister and my some female cousins, do swimming, but at the pools, where the men are not allowed at that time. Also they wear complete cloths that are specially designed for swimming, and off course used all over the world. What about this Sydney Olympics, did one of the mullahs got there, and asked everyone to wear complete swimsuits? And what about doing swimming for exercise and fitness and doing the show the skin off business? By the way Ali, are you an exhibitionist??
As far as the last Para in my last e-mail was concerned, I feel quite sorry that you again took it wrong. Even if you didn’t, you explained it wrong. Killing is not Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad; it is just that people have got them selves, in the cocooned, built by some Mullahs, who want to use religion. Let me explain it to you. Ali, tell me what you know about jihad, but just in one paragraph. This will help me tell you the mullah story more clearly.
Ali as for scholarly ability and intellectualism, you require is concerned, I am not quite sure about it, is it that I don’t prove the things scientifically, or that I don’t then argue when you term it P-Science (p-sci). In the end, Ali I want to give an invitation to you and Roy to visit me in Pakistan. I want to have a face-to-face discussion on these. I will be able to provide accommodation to you, with the facilities possible by me. Also I will be responsible for your full security, in Pakistan, if you like. I will make sure that no one even comes to know about your visit, as if this might make your visit more secure.
Kind wishes,
Malik Usman.

_______________CHALLENGE IS STILL THERE, YOU HAVE TO PUBLISH IT THE WAY IT IS___________________________


-----Original Message-----
From: "Ali Sina" <afreethinker@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 05:48:02
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Fwd: You know, I actually didn't liked the idea of....


> Dear Usman
>
> I did not attack your person. There is no need to that.
>
> If you can disprove Roy Ajivit and the Contradictions in Quran written by
> Syed Kamran Mirza, please do so. I am sure they would be happy to hear that.
> There is no need to brag and say it is easy to refute them. Just refute
> them.
>
> I am sorry you did not like my initiative to publish our correspondence. I
> personally love when others publish my works, unless there is something
> personal in it and then I will make sure to tell them not to. In our debate
> I see nothing of personal nature.
>
> I believe it is my Mi’raj to Heaven that you call “bad humor”. I don’t see
> anything bad in it. This is my “true” story of visit with God and if you do
> not believe tell me why you reject my Mi’raj and accept Muhammad’s? My story
> is even more colorful with more realistic details. I posted the whole
> extraordinary episode in my site. Here it is.
> http://free.freespeech.org/rationalthinking/my_miraj.htm
>
>
> About my great grand father splitting the Sun, as I said this is a “true”
> story. It is as true as is Muhammad’s splitting of the moon. You already
> said that splitting the moon is scientific, so I do not understand why it is
> so difficult for you to accept what I tell you about the miracles of my
> great grand father. I challenge you to disprove it. You can call me a liar,
> but can you prove that I am a liar? You also said the faith does not require
> proof, so why are you asking for photos? Do you have any photos from
> Muhammad’s splitting of the moon?
>
> You asked why my great grand father split the Sun. He did that for the same
> reasons that Muhammad split the Moon. Why did Muhammad split the Moon? You
> asked “why he did not do something more useful like splitting the neutron
> and become the next Einstein or why he didn’t invented a PC or TV or other
> social work”. May I ask you why Muhammad did not do what you are suggesting?
> Please answer that.
>
> Rational thinking is thinking using your own brain. One of the requirements
> of rational thinking is freethinking. Freethinking means thinking
> independently without relying on an authority to solve your problem.
> Freethinkers and rational thinkers listen to everyone but they do not come
> to any decision because a certain solution is given by a known and trusted
> authority. The final authority to decide what is wrong and what is right is
> themselves.
>
> Another characteristic of the rational thinkers is that they rely on facts.
> They do not accept anything as true unless there are solid facts proving it.
> This does not mean that they reject all those things for which there is not
> evidence yet. But they will remain skeptics until facts are found.
>
> However there are things that go against logic, science and human reason.
> Those things are not accepted by rational thinkers. They belong to the real
> of fantasy, myths and fable.
>
> Let me clarify with an example. The early pictures of the Mars revealed a
> rock formation that resembled a human face. Some people started making
> stories about it. They said this is the remnant of a lost civilization of
> early Martians whose plants was dying and they made this face to solicit
> help from extramartian creatures. Though this expiation was outlandish, it
> was not entirely absurd. A rational thinker in this situation will not
> accept this hypothesis because there is not enough evidence to support it.
> However because it is not absolutely impossible, he will remain skeptic.
> People in NASA never believed in the man’s face on the Mars. However they
> still went there and took more pictures just in case. The closer pictures
> showed that there is no such a face. The lights and shadows in the early
> pictures made it appear so. The reason NASA did not discard the whole
> thought is because that theory though very improbable was not impossible.
>
> But what about the story of Muhammad splitting the Moon!? Do you think
> scientists should study this and talk about it? This is the most foolish
> thought. How someone from the Earth can split another planet? If such a
> phenomenon takes place, the two pieces of the Moon will hit the Earth and
> all life will disappear in this planet for at least few thousands of years.
> The clouds of dust will cover everything. All vegetation will die. It will
> have the effect of hitting the Earth with two nitrogen bombs each billions
> of times more powerful than the most powerful bomb we have. How is it that
> Muhammad can split the Moon in Mecca and the inhabitants of Mecca see one
> half of the Moon in the right of the Mount Hira and the other half in the
> left and the entire world remain oblivious of it? You are offended that I
> made fun of the brain of the believers. If you don’t want to become the
> subject of laughter then please do not make ridiculous statements. Those who
> make these fables did not have a clue that Moon is a planet. They thought it
> is a lamp as it says in the Quran. They had no idea of the gravitational
> force. How splitting the Moon could be scientific? Would you like to
> elaborate on that?
>
> What about the story of Noah? I explained that in my previous email. You did
> not answer my questions. I repeat them again.
>
> In order for the waters to cover the tip of all the mountains as it is said
> in the story of Noah, we need at least 10 times more water than there is in
> the Earth. The earth is a close environment. Where did this much water come
> and where did it go? How the animals from South America, Australia and the
> rest of the world went to Cannan? Who informed them and gave them the
> address of Noah? There are millions of species, as of yet the scientists
> have not been able to complete the list of all the species of the animals,
> including insects and birds of this planet, how a handful of people like the
> old Noah and his sons could gather all of these animals? How these animals
> crossed the oceans? It takes a sloth, hours to go forward few meters. For a
> South American sloth to go to Canaan it would have taken a thousand years.
> How they got there? Where Noah lodged this mach animal? How he fed them?
> Pandas eat bamboo and Koalas a certain Eucalyptus that do not grow in
> Canaan. Did these animals bring their own food along? How they were kept
> apart? Many animals are carnivores; what did they eat during this time?
> Please explain these questions scientifically.
>
> How can Mi’raj be scientific? I asked you the following questions in my
> second message to you. If God is supposed to be omnipresent, why Muhammad
> had to go somewhere else to meet him? Is Jerusalem the gateway to Heaven? If
> Muhammad traveled on a winged steed in one night to get to heaven then the
> heaven must be a physical place close to the Earth. You cannot travel
> outside the Earth’s atmosphere with wings. Wings will only take you were
> there is air. With so many mapping, air travels satellite photos why we
> haven’t find this heaven? If heaven is not a physical place why Muhammad
> needed the winged steed? If Allah was behind the curtain then he cannot be
> omnipresent. An omnipresent god cannot be behind, in front, under or over
> anything. He is everywhere. This whole story is so naïf that it is mind
> boggling anyone still believe in it. But faith blinds. If someone said a
> similar story about someone else, no Muslim would believe it, but since it
> is about Muhammad, all lies are truth. The bigger the lie, the better it is.
> Please answer these questions.
>
> Is jinn scientific? Has anyone ever seen a jinn? How about unicorns? Do they
> exist? These are childish beliefs. When you think like a child how can you
> expect to be treated like an adult? When you believe in irrational things
> how you want me to tell you what is rational thinking? Okay, rational
> thinking is thinking completely opposite to the way you think. That is
> rational thinking. This is not a personal attack. This is a fact.
>
> All the above stories are unscientific. They are irrational and any one who
> believes in them is not a rational thinker. This is the definition of
> rational thinking. I am not escaping from explaining to you the meaning of
> rational thinking but it seems that you are not getting it. What I said is
> not new. In fact I copied and pasted the above three paragraphs from my
> previous messages to you. So, why you say I did not explain the meaning of
> rational thinking? In the first email you sent to me, where you said you
> want to leave Islam and want me to tell you what to do, I asked you to read
> my article What Religion to Choose? In the Freethinking section. There I
> explained the whole idea of rational thinking. You said you read it, but you
> still ask me the same question. Did you read my article called Freethinking?
>
> In contrast religious thinking is using the sacred books as the authority to
> decide between right and wrong. A religious man does not use his brain. He
> consults his holy book instead.
>
> You see my friend, before I started to disprove Islam; I read the entire
> Quran, most of the Hadiths and several other Islamic books about the life of
> the Muhammad. If you want to win your opponent, you have to know him. When
> you know him you can learn about his weaknesses and then attack him. You did
> not read anything of what I wrote. You don’t even pay attention to what I
> write specifically addressed to you. You keep repeating the same questions
> over and over. This is not rational thinking.
>
>
> You ask, why I trust a doctor and not a prophet. I explained it clearly. The
> reason I trust the doctor to operate on me is because he is licensed. In
> order to get his license he had to pass all the exams and do some training
> in a hospital. There a trusted government institution certifying his
> qualification.
>
> What is the proof of the prophets? Nothing. They just come and tell you they
> are prophets and you believe them. That is all. I made the same claim too,
> why do you still argue with me? Why don’t you believe me? What Muhammad
> produced as the proof that I haven’t?
>
> There is a difference in trusting a certified doctor and an uncertified
> prophet. If the doctor was not certified I would not believe in him. Please
> do not keep asking the same question over and over. You either accept what I
> say or refute it by some sort of reasoning or just move on. I do not have
> time to explain the same thing several times.
>
>
> You wrote, “Ok, ok you keep on telling that Muhammad killed his enemy, but
> do you know that they were always given the option to either except or be at
> war and at sometimes, it was to either believe or pay JIZYA?”
>
> How about me doing to you the same thing that Muhammad did to others? How
> would you like if I tell you accept me as the messenger of God or face the
> consequences? Suppose I have the manpower and enough hungry gangsters and
> merciless brainwashed hounds like Muhammad did. Is it fair? Do you thing
> that would be right for me to come and kill you, rape your wife and take
> your kids as slaves if you refuse my religion? Do you still want me to tell
> you what is rational thinking? This is rational thinking.
>
> You wrote, “Ok what would you have done if you were a ruler with hostile
> enemy around you? Would you have waited until they get you killed in your
> own home.”
>
> No one wanted to attack the Muslims. ALL Muhammad’s wars were offensive.
> Please do not keep repeating the same lies. Here is the text of the message
> the Mohammad sent to the Julanda brothers the rulers of Oman:
>
> "Peace be upon the one who follows the right path! I call you to Islam.
> Accept my call, and you shall be unharmed. I am God's Messenger to mankind,
> and the word shall be carried out upon the miscreants. If, therefore, you
> recognize Islam, I shall bestow power upon you. But if you refuse to accept
> Islam, your power shall vanish, my horses shall camp on the expanse of your
> territory and my prophecy shall prevail in your kingdom."
>
> It is clear that Muhammad was the aggressor. Did Persia attack Muhammad? Did
> Syria attack Muhammad? Did Spain attack Muslims. Tell me what country attack
> Islam first. The problem with religious people is that they lie and they
> think because this lie is for the religion it is okay. In fact Muslims would
> commit murder, assassination and rape all in the name of Allah and that is
> okay.
>
> As far as praying, fasting, not drinking, not consuming pork is concerned I
> don’t give a damn. Whether it is good or bad it is your business. You are
> not allowed to impose any of that on others or me. Keep your religion to
> yourself. That is what I say. Just as you do not appreciate the followers of
> other religions dictated their religions on you, you should not dictate your
> religion of others.
>
> You wrote, “if you say that I am cocooned in lie, then you must prove and
> satisfy me,”
>
> I think that is what I have done all along. When I explained to you the
> absurdity of the stories of Noah, Mi’raj, jinns and splitting the Moon, that
> was exactly what I was doing. I was proving that those stories are lies,
> they are childish, they are stupid and anyone who believes in these
> fairytales is cocooned in lies. There are more lies in Islam. Islam is full
> of lies. We just happened to mention these lies. Another lie is that
> Muhammad made was to defend itself. This is yet a huge lie that all Muslims
> know but keep repeating. You know perfectly that this is a lie. Tell me one
> war were Muslims were attacked and they had to defend themselves.
>
> As for your question about the first cause, it is a long subject, I have a
> couple of articles in my site. One of them is mine and the other belongs to
> Avijit Roy. Please read them and then try to refute them. I will not engage
> in any discussion on this topic until you read these two articles. I hate
> repetitions.
> http://free.freespeech.org/rationalthinking/chance_or_intelligence.htm