Hi
Ali,
Sorry, just until 19th of this month, you might
have some late replies from me, due to some
personal matters. By the way, was I complaining
about disclosing my messages? Well now add another
thing, I certainly didn’t liked even a bit of
the idea, of adding me to that mail list. You
might remember in one of my first e-mails I
told you that I don’t like the idea of joining
a list. But still… I will soon, as soon as I
get online again, unsubscribe my self from it.
By the way do you know, that this action of
yours, that is adding me without my consent
can lead to its closure? So just a point I would
like you to note, don’t try it even again. As
far as Mr. Roy is concerned, I am in no way,
with any problem to discuss these matters with
him. But remember, only him. So therefore, next
time, I wouldn’t mind if I receive reply on
my e-mail from him too. By the way circulating
my e-mails in a list like yours can help you
a lot, therefore, even if you want to do so,
do it, but keep my e-mail address out of it.
Thank you for listening. Now the “real thing”
follows.
Lets
start from Roy’s reply. His answers were really
childish. It was just like, “I eat mosquito,
why do you kill it?” Now for Mr. Roy with
love.
I agree that Alcohol can be used as drugs
and it is, but you must keep a line between,
use as an anti-depressant and as a drug. Just
for addition to your information, Islam even
allows to eat haram food, only and only in
case that you cannot find a hilal food to
eat and you are starving to death. Let me
give you an example. If locus attacks your
fields and destroys each and everything, Islam
allows you to even eat it, to survive. I think,
in that case it might be up to your standard,
but it contains Vitamin C.
Then about pig. Pig is termed as “haram food”,
but not a haram to live. Muslims believe that
each and everything in this universe, nothing
is useless. All things in this universe, enables
the equilibrium and makes sure that it remains
in contact. These applications can be known,
or unknown.
As for the cow meat, I knew how a Hindu would
feel about it, but well I agree that its use
is not very good either. But also kindly note
that it neither compulsory, as to Quran or
as to Hadith. According to Ali (the fourth
caliph), use of cow meat if exceeds one tablespoon
a day (maximum) might lead to illness. By
the way, if cow were so much into religion
then in place of Ismaeel, Allah would have
sent a cow, instead of a sheep. Mr. Roy, this
might explain a lot.
Mr. Roy, do you know that people, who use
cigarettes, become addicted to it. They cannot
leave it, even if they want to do so. When
Islam talked about wine, it said “khummar”
which do not mean wine; it means anything
that can cause mental unconsciousness, in
other words, drug of any kind. Now for your
kind knowledge, cigarettes also come in the
category of drugs in some countries, and in
lists of main doctors. Therefore, Islam did
stop even from its usage. “And the wisdom
is for those who understand”. If you like
I can even let you know the exact Ayahs and
Hadith, should I?
Now Ali, for you. Don’t worry, and don’t be
in so much hurry, I am writing over it. And
as earlier mentioned some personal matters
are causing problems. Once Ali, we reach on
one faith, I will like to show you some of
my works too, which I like others to publish,
and some of those too, which already have
been. Well not exactly, I called your travel
bad humor, but it was just one among them.
Wait… Let me laugh once again…
As you have been felt enjoying the scientific
proof of moon, thing. I have contacted some
space agencies, not only NASA, but from 29
different countries, will you forward any
reply I get from them. So don’t worry about
that much. J
At last, you did explain the Rational Thinking.
But don’t worry I wouldn’t comment on that
much, as I don’ like to ask for thing again
and again.
Oh about the mars, I even came to know about
a man who was claiming that his picture is
on Mars, now then what happened was that NASA
took him away for some research. Just kidding,
for the second part, first one was true.
Ali, you got to the right point, but didn’t
take it right. I meant, that okay your grand
father splitted the Sun, but my question was
that did he claim prophecy after wards? So
now it is too clear, so you might not have
any problem.
It will be good if you ask a geologist. It
is commonly believed theory by them that the
water level used to be higher then most of
the mountains, then it decreased tremendously
afterwards. According to a German professor
at Harbourg University, water level used to
be much higher. He proved this theory after
he published a research paper, as he found
the rocks which belong to the Red Sea in the
mountain ranges of Germany, his later research
also discovered such rocks at India, from
Atlantic. I cannot remember the exact name
of the place in an Arabian country, which
exhibits this phenomenon. But this can be
proved more by the pictures of American landscape,
I am sorry for not been able to produce the
exact photo, but will try my level best to
make it possible, as soon as possible.
Sorry, but you are wrong on stating the earth
to be a close system. Earth is not a closed
system, but the universe is, even though it
is increasing, but still it is expanding.
Okay how do you explain the, lower death rate,
but increasing birth rate? Do you know what
is the composition of Human body? What do
you think universe was formed from? Big bang?
Ok but in explosion all of the water evaporates,
then how did it survived after this all. It
should have been condensed into ice, of a
special kind. Then why it is here then? I
hope you will like to answer these non-intellectual
answers. And all the above, I came to know
through last mail that your rational thinking,
asks scientific and logical explanation. I
would really love to read your next reply,
only if that answer to my these questions.
I know that my reply on Miraj would not be
complete but will be quite enough. Yes Jerusalem
is a gateway to heaven, as it is the first
KIBLLA of Muslims. When in prayer Allah asked
Muslims to turn the direction, Muhammad was
told that it is because when ever you start
to pray, you look at ME. Now for the steed
with wings, the buraq. According to Muslims,
Allah makes laws, and a lawmaker can change
them without any hesitation. If Allah is the
lawmaker, of that the air cannot push someone
up in space, then Allah can also change them.
By the way, the Miraj might be symbolic (the
Buraq), what if there was, something like
teleportation, or something that took place?
(You know skeptism.) As I previously told
you about what Moses encountered on that mountain,
was to warn him, but this time, with Muhammad
was a needed discussion. To understand religion,
you need to be neutral. Try to look at the
things from positive view too.
Have you read Surah Ar-Rahman’s Ayah 19? In
which Allah says, that we have separated the
water of the seas and oceans with an invisible
curtain, and these are like the limits, which
the water doesn’t cross. Just look at the
water, it is a vast amount of thing which
covers the surface of planet. We all know
that water can merge with each other, as it
flows. But what about now? Why in oceans and
seas water doesn’t mix with each other. When
Allah told this, people used to laugh at it,
but now when the scientific research has reached
this topic, they have agreed it to be true,
and now the thing once claimed by a book,
is now a fact. But well Mr. Roy will like
to comment over this too? And what about you
Ali, is this too p-science? Ali, this Ayah
is more then clear. Do let me know your answer.
Ali, I know that you have to look at the other
person’s weak points, to win… but to win a
war, and are this in any way a war?? By the
way, I do read your articles, and that is
why I answer you, if I wouldn’t have read
your letters how do you expect me writing
you a reply. By the way, why I have to ask
the same questions again is that you do not
answer them. And I want to have answers. Let
me give you an example; I asked you about
rational thinking, and you answered me in
your last e-mail, after I asked you more then
dozens of time, see, quite simple ;)
Ali you didn’t gave the exact answer to my
question of trusting a “imperfect human”.
Let me explain you in detail. Those ‘imperfect
doctors” were issued license, from an institute,
made and run by ‘imperfect individuals/government”.
Well why government? Because they are also
‘imperfect humans”, elected by ‘imperfect
masses”. So how do you explain trusting a
whole imperfect system? You know that they
can be wrong, but you still take risk. Why?
Can you explain this to me? I think this question
was near to your standards of intellectualism,
right????
Okay I suppose for a moment, that you are
a prophet and that you have army, and you
can kill me. But I have courage, I can stop
you, even if I can’t I will resist. You cannot
convince me and millions of people by force
to be with you in your faith. You must have
some quality; you must, at least to the lowest
level, a personality. !!!
Yes I agree, this is some message any person
leading a war would ever say. But Ali, you
don’t only deny science but even history.
What about badr, where Muslims were attacked
when they were only 313 in number, they didn’t
challenged the makkhans to come out for a
war, it was against their own good. A new
religion with so less people would have just
vanished in such attempt that is war with
thousands of enemies. What about the next
war, Uhad, it was again supper imposed on
Muslims, by the makkhans who wanted to take
revenge of their people killed in Badr. And
then what about the war of Khandak, where
Muslims never wanted o have war. And to make
the war impossible, they dig ditches, so to
keep the enemy away from reaching the city.
Even then some tried to cross it, and in self-defense,
Muslims had to execute their right of living
by killing their enemy. As you asked about
a single war, I have mentioned three wars
above, guess that they are okay to answer
your questions??
You said rape??? Can you kindly give me an
example?
Okay, I didn’t have time to read that article,
therefore, I give you a moment of relief,
I am not asking currently anything about it.
Ali I read a very beautiful thing, according
to Max Weber, “science has resulted in the
disenchantment of the world”. The “enchantment”
of the world resulted from people relying
on religion and giving magical explanations
t perfectly logical, natural phenomena (Knapp
139). By the way just an addition, “science
and religion are widespread, each having dogmatic
believers, antagonism has resulted”. Therefore
from now on, I will only give you scientific
proves of Quran and Islam. And I think I have
sufficient knowledge of both, sufficient enough
to make a productive discussion. From now
on, I will be discussing from point of view,
the same as from which people like Annie Dillard,
G. Richard, W. S. F. Pickering, Robert S.,
Thomas Meyer, etc talked in there life. And
Ali, I don’t think that any of above is a
Muslim, or some hardliner, fundamentalist,
etc. I am sure you will like their talk, and
there writing.
Ali, many points are raised from the Para,
in which you talked about the percentage of
Muslims. First of all, if they know that Islam
is a terrorist religion then why do they stick
with it? They are in Scandinavia, and no one
will harm them, due to strong law and order,
so why are they living with the title on their
head of a terrorist religion? Don’t they have
self-integrity or anything that they hate
one thing, but follow it too. No one will
and no one can ask them to name their children
on the names of Muhammad, Ali, Usman, Omer,
etc, then why do they do so? Also what forum
do you think claims this, can you kindly give
me a link to one? By the way, they then why
do the marriage of their children with other
Muslims, why don’t they get them married to
non-Muslims, or the religion they like. In
this way they will one day escape from the
title of Islam. Don’t you think so? Okay if
they are blacks of America, then what about
the whites of Europe? Also did you said blacks
are “resentful”?
Mr. Ali, who made the laws in the start? This
law-concept was brought first from the religions.
If you don’t agree ask any intellectual, who
has mastered the law or something, not some
of your own style (like Mr. Roy).
Ali, you argue too much about beating of women
in Islam. My family is Muslim; from lets say
when the Islam came to sub-continent. But
I don’t know one of my relative, friend, or
any other, who beats his wife, and says that
it is because Islam, told him too. This beating
stuff takes place where there is communication
gap, lack of education and poverty. In Pakistan
and India, men beat their wives, why? Because
98% of these people are jobless, drug addicts
or other, they want their wives to work, to
keep hem alive. What do you expect from such
person, how much religion he can possibly
know? I am sorry if you say such thing on
basis of a personal accident. By the way,
bikini? My sister and my some female cousins,
do swimming, but at the pools, where the men
are not allowed at that time. Also they wear
complete cloths that are specially designed
for swimming, and off course used all over
the world. What about this Sydney Olympics,
did one of the mullahs got there, and asked
everyone to wear complete swimsuits? And what
about doing swimming for exercise and fitness
and doing the show the skin off business?
By the way Ali, are you an exhibitionist??
As far as the last Para in my last e-mail
was concerned, I feel quite sorry that you
again took it wrong. Even if you didn’t, you
explained it wrong. Killing is not Sunnah
of Prophet Muhammad; it is just that people
have got them selves, in the cocooned, built
by some Mullahs, who want to use religion.
Let me explain it to you. Ali, tell me what
you know about jihad, but just in one paragraph.
This will help me tell you the mullah story
more clearly.
Ali as for scholarly ability and intellectualism,
you require is concerned, I am not quite sure
about it, is it that I don’t prove the things
scientifically, or that I don’t then argue
when you term it P-Science (p-sci). In the
end, Ali I want to give an invitation to you
and Roy to visit me in Pakistan. I want to
have a face-to-face discussion on these. I
will be able to provide accommodation to you,
with the facilities possible by me. Also I
will be responsible for your full security,
in Pakistan, if you like. I will make sure
that no one even comes to know about your
visit, as if this might make your visit more
secure.
Kind wishes,
Malik Usman.
_______________CHALLENGE
IS STILL THERE, YOU HAVE TO PUBLISH IT THE
WAY IT IS___________________________
-----Original Message-----
From: "Ali Sina" <afreethinker@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 05:48:02
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Fwd: You know, I
actually didn't liked the idea of....
> Dear Usman
>
> I did not attack your person. There is
no need to that.
>
> If you can disprove Roy Ajivit and the
Contradictions in Quran written by
> Syed Kamran Mirza, please do so. I am
sure they would be happy to hear that.
> There is no need to brag and say it is
easy to refute them. Just refute
> them.
>
> I am sorry you did not like my initiative
to publish our correspondence. I
> personally love when others publish my
works, unless there is something
> personal in it and then I will make sure
to tell them not to. In our debate
> I see nothing of personal nature.
>
> I believe it is my Mi’raj to Heaven that
you call “bad humor”. I don’t see
> anything bad in it. This is my “true”
story of visit with God and if you do
> not believe tell me why you reject my
Mi’raj and accept Muhammad’s? My story
> is even more colorful with more realistic
details. I posted the whole
> extraordinary episode in my site. Here
it is.
> http://free.freespeech.org/rationalthinking/my_miraj.htm
>
>
> About my great grand father splitting
the Sun, as I said this is a “true”
> story. It is as true as is Muhammad’s
splitting of the moon. You already
> said that splitting the moon is scientific,
so I do not understand why it is
> so difficult for you to accept what I
tell you about the miracles of my
> great grand father. I challenge you to
disprove it. You can call me a liar,
> but can you prove that I am a liar? You
also said the faith does not require
> proof, so why are you asking for photos?
Do you have any photos from
> Muhammad’s splitting of the moon?
>
> You asked why my great grand father split
the Sun. He did that for the same
> reasons that Muhammad split the Moon.
Why did Muhammad split the Moon? You
> asked “why he did not do something more
useful like splitting the neutron
> and become the next Einstein or why he
didn’t invented a PC or TV or other
> social work”. May I ask you why Muhammad
did not do what you are suggesting?
> Please answer that.
>
> Rational thinking is thinking using your
own brain. One of the requirements
> of rational thinking is freethinking.
Freethinking means thinking
> independently without relying on an authority
to solve your problem.
> Freethinkers and rational thinkers listen
to everyone but they do not come
> to any decision because a certain solution
is given by a known and trusted
> authority. The final authority to decide
what is wrong and what is right is
> themselves.
>
> Another characteristic of the rational
thinkers is that they rely on facts.
> They do not accept anything as true unless
there are solid facts proving it.
> This does not mean that they reject all
those things for which there is not
> evidence yet. But they will remain skeptics
until facts are found.
>
> However there are things that go against
logic, science and human reason.
> Those things are not accepted by rational
thinkers. They belong to the real
> of fantasy, myths and fable.
>
> Let me clarify with an example. The early
pictures of the Mars revealed a
> rock formation that resembled a human
face. Some people started making
> stories about it. They said this is the
remnant of a lost civilization of
> early Martians whose plants was dying
and they made this face to solicit
> help from extramartian creatures. Though
this expiation was outlandish, it
> was not entirely absurd. A rational thinker
in this situation will not
> accept this hypothesis because there
is not enough evidence to support it.
> However because it is not absolutely
impossible, he will remain skeptic.
> People in NASA never believed in the
man’s face on the Mars. However they
> still went there and took more pictures
just in case. The closer pictures
> showed that there is no such a face.
The lights and shadows in the early
> pictures made it appear so. The reason
NASA did not discard the whole
> thought is because that theory though
very improbable was not impossible.
>
> But what about the story of Muhammad
splitting the Moon!? Do you think
> scientists should study this and talk
about it? This is the most foolish
> thought. How someone from the Earth can
split another planet? If such a
> phenomenon takes place, the two pieces
of the Moon will hit the Earth and
> all life will disappear in this planet
for at least few thousands of years.
> The clouds of dust will cover everything.
All vegetation will die. It will
> have the effect of hitting the Earth
with two nitrogen bombs each billions
> of times more powerful than the most
powerful bomb we have. How is it that
> Muhammad can split the Moon in Mecca
and the inhabitants of Mecca see one
> half of the Moon in the right of the
Mount Hira and the other half in the
> left and the entire world remain oblivious
of it? You are offended that I
> made fun of the brain of the believers.
If you don’t want to become the
> subject of laughter then please do not
make ridiculous statements. Those who
> make these fables did not have a clue
that Moon is a planet. They thought it
> is a lamp as it says in the Quran. They
had no idea of the gravitational
> force. How splitting the Moon could be
scientific? Would you like to
> elaborate on that?
>
> What about the story of Noah? I explained
that in my previous email. You did
> not answer my questions. I repeat them
again.
>
> In order for the waters to cover the
tip of all the mountains as it is said
> in the story of Noah, we need at least
10 times more water than there is in
> the Earth. The earth is a close environment.
Where did this much water come
> and where did it go? How the animals
from South America, Australia and the
> rest of the world went to Cannan? Who
informed them and gave them the
> address of Noah? There are millions of
species, as of yet the scientists
> have not been able to complete the list
of all the species of the animals,
> including insects and birds of this planet,
how a handful of people like the
> old Noah and his sons could gather all
of these animals? How these animals
> crossed the oceans? It takes a sloth,
hours to go forward few meters. For a
> South American sloth to go to Canaan
it would have taken a thousand years.
> How they got there? Where Noah lodged
this mach animal? How he fed them?
> Pandas eat bamboo and Koalas a certain
Eucalyptus that do not grow in
> Canaan. Did these animals bring their
own food along? How they were kept
> apart? Many animals are carnivores; what
did they eat during this time?
> Please explain these questions scientifically.
>
> How can Mi’raj be scientific? I asked
you the following questions in my
> second message to you. If God is supposed
to be omnipresent, why Muhammad
> had to go somewhere else to meet him?
Is Jerusalem the gateway to Heaven? If
> Muhammad traveled on a winged steed in
one night to get to heaven then the
> heaven must be a physical place close
to the Earth. You cannot travel
> outside the Earth’s atmosphere with wings.
Wings will only take you were
> there is air. With so many mapping, air
travels satellite photos why we
> haven’t find this heaven? If heaven is
not a physical place why Muhammad
> needed the winged steed? If Allah was
behind the curtain then he cannot be
> omnipresent. An omnipresent god cannot
be behind, in front, under or over
> anything. He is everywhere. This whole
story is so naïf that it is mind
> boggling anyone still believe in it.
But faith blinds. If someone said a
> similar story about someone else, no
Muslim would believe it, but since it
> is about Muhammad, all lies are truth.
The bigger the lie, the better it is.
> Please answer these questions.
>
> Is jinn scientific? Has anyone ever seen
a jinn? How about unicorns? Do they
> exist? These are childish beliefs. When
you think like a child how can you
> expect to be treated like an adult? When
you believe in irrational things
> how you want me to tell you what is rational
thinking? Okay, rational
> thinking is thinking completely opposite
to the way you think. That is
> rational thinking. This is not a personal
attack. This is a fact.
>
> All the above stories are unscientific.
They are irrational and any one who
> believes in them is not a rational thinker.
This is the definition of
> rational thinking. I am not escaping
from explaining to you the meaning of
> rational thinking but it seems that you
are not getting it. What I said is
> not new. In fact I copied and pasted
the above three paragraphs from my
> previous messages to you. So, why you
say I did not explain the meaning of
> rational thinking? In the first email
you sent to me, where you said you
> want to leave Islam and want me to tell
you what to do, I asked you to read
> my article What Religion to Choose? In
the Freethinking section. There I
> explained the whole idea of rational
thinking. You said you read it, but you
> still ask me the same question. Did you
read my article called Freethinking?
>
> In contrast religious thinking is using
the sacred books as the authority to
> decide between right and wrong. A religious
man does not use his brain. He
> consults his holy book instead.
>
> You see my friend, before I started to
disprove Islam; I read the entire
> Quran, most of the Hadiths and several
other Islamic books about the life of
> the Muhammad. If you want to win your
opponent, you have to know him. When
> you know him you can learn about his
weaknesses and then attack him. You did
> not read anything of what I wrote. You
don’t even pay attention to what I
> write specifically addressed to you.
You keep repeating the same questions
> over and over. This is not rational thinking.
>
>
> You ask, why I trust a doctor and not
a prophet. I explained it clearly. The
> reason I trust the doctor to operate
on me is because he is licensed. In
> order to get his license he had to pass
all the exams and do some training
> in a hospital. There a trusted government
institution certifying his
> qualification.
>
> What is the proof of the prophets? Nothing.
They just come and tell you they
> are prophets and you believe them. That
is all. I made the same claim too,
> why do you still argue with me? Why don’t
you believe me? What Muhammad
> produced as the proof that I haven’t?
>
> There is a difference in trusting a certified
doctor and an uncertified
> prophet. If the doctor was not certified
I would not believe in him. Please
> do not keep asking the same question
over and over. You either accept what I
> say or refute it by some sort of reasoning
or just move on. I do not have
> time to explain the same thing several
times.
>
>
> You wrote, “Ok, ok you keep on telling
that Muhammad killed his enemy, but
> do you know that they were always given
the option to either except or be at
> war and at sometimes, it was to either
believe or pay JIZYA?”
>
> How about me doing to you the same thing
that Muhammad did to others? How
> would you like if I tell you accept me
as the messenger of God or face the
> consequences? Suppose I have the manpower
and enough hungry gangsters and
> merciless brainwashed hounds like Muhammad
did. Is it fair? Do you thing
> that would be right for me to come and
kill you, rape your wife and take
> your kids as slaves if you refuse my
religion? Do you still want me to tell
> you what is rational thinking? This is
rational thinking.
>
> You wrote, “Ok what would you have done
if you were a ruler with hostile
> enemy around you? Would you have waited
until they get you killed in your
> own home.”
>
> No one wanted to attack the Muslims.
ALL Muhammad’s wars were offensive.
> Please do not keep repeating the same
lies. Here is the text of the message
> the Mohammad sent to the Julanda brothers
the rulers of Oman:
>
> "Peace be upon the one who follows the
right path! I call you to Islam.
> Accept my call, and you shall be unharmed.
I am God's Messenger to mankind,
> and the word shall be carried out upon
the miscreants. If, therefore, you
> recognize Islam, I shall bestow power
upon you. But if you refuse to accept
> Islam, your power shall vanish, my horses
shall camp on the expanse of your
> territory and my prophecy shall prevail
in your kingdom."
>
> It is clear that Muhammad was the aggressor.
Did Persia attack Muhammad? Did
> Syria attack Muhammad? Did Spain attack
Muslims. Tell me what country attack
> Islam first. The problem with religious
people is that they lie and they
> think because this lie is for the religion
it is okay. In fact Muslims would
> commit murder, assassination and rape
all in the name of Allah and that is
> okay.
>
> As far as praying, fasting, not drinking,
not consuming pork is concerned I
> don’t give a damn. Whether it is good
or bad it is your business. You are
> not allowed to impose any of that on
others or me. Keep your religion to
> yourself. That is what I say. Just as
you do not appreciate the followers of
> other religions dictated their religions
on you, you should not dictate your
> religion of others.
>
> You wrote, “if you say that I am cocooned
in lie, then you must prove and
> satisfy me,”
>
> I think that is what I have done all
along. When I explained to you the
> absurdity of the stories of Noah, Mi’raj,
jinns and splitting the Moon, that
> was exactly what I was doing. I was proving
that those stories are lies,
> they are childish, they are stupid and
anyone who believes in these
> fairytales is cocooned in lies. There
are more lies in Islam. Islam is full
> of lies. We just happened to mention
these lies. Another lie is that
> Muhammad made was to defend itself. This
is yet a huge lie that all Muslims
> know but keep repeating. You know perfectly
that this is a lie. Tell me one
> war were Muslims were attacked and they
had to defend themselves.
>
> As for your question about the first
cause, it is a long subject, I have a
> couple of articles in my site. One of
them is mine and the other belongs to
> Avijit Roy. Please read them and then
try to refute them. I will not engage
> in any discussion on this topic until
you read these two articles. I hate
> repetitions.
> http://free.freespeech.org/rationalthinking/chance_or_intelligence.htm
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