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Mon, 11 Jun 2001
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 our e-mail:

From: "Usman Malik" <islami@consultant.com> [Save Address] [Block Sender]
To: afreethinker@hotmail.com
Cc:
Subject: You know, I actually didn't liked the idea of....
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 03:00:59 +0500
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Dear Ali,
Thank you for your reply; I just had a feeling of not receiving a reply due to delay in the reply. But well; now I am feeling quite happy after I understood more about you. But believe me (only if you like, no hard feelings if you don’t) I just tonight was discussing your way of reply with one of my very close friend, while comparing with someone else I knew and we both agreed that you don’t attack other person personally. But sorry this last proved it to be all wrong. Yeah, yeah, I know man is not as perfect to judge any one perfectly, but know what “we understand by our mistakes”. Ali, know what? Roy Avijit’s article linked on your site is more then easy to be proved wrong. Actually he has used a very old way, and I also checked your “Quranic contradictions”, it is somewhat also written on the same old principle. I will be glad to send you my answers to them, once I complete reading them thoroughly.

“””””The full correspondence with Usman is in 3 parts. I found it interesting because I could peep into the mind of a true believer. The mind of a believer is a world in it own. If Marx was wrong in everything, he was right when he said religion is the opiate of the masses. A religious brain is indeed a brain on drugs.
Correspondence with Usman Malik “”””””

Quite funny! Yes I looked into your new pages, but you know were nothing but bad humor, and you must know, if you can “peep” into someone’s mind that laughing at other is the easiest thing to do when you can do nothing. (Ali, I challenge you to write this whole e-mail, as it is in PART IV (usman4.htm), if you think that you have courage to have free speech J ). Now the next thing is that are you still serious to have this discussion with me? Wow, that was awesome; its for your grand dad, you know I was quite amazed. But did he also claim Prophecy right after that? And by the way why did he do that, I mean reason? He could do something more well like splitting the neutron and be the next Einstein. And why didn’t he invented a PC or TV right away, you know, “SOCIAL WORK”.
Personally I didn’t like the idea of yours of displaying my whole conversation with you on your website, it might have increased the content for your website, but… ok if it helped you in anyway, I am more then ever egger to help you more in this part. May be more people like, Roy Avijit will also be from now on to help you, on how to answer me (multiple brains, generate more brain power). You will be glad to find more convincing e-mail from me (feeds for your site).
By the way, you don’t answer me about everything. I asked about your rational thinking and you escaped it with that its like art or music. But I think these both the forms of arts are explained able, if not teach able. Of course you cannot transfer creativity but you can transfer your feelings in a paragraph, if you know how to. What do think of me, I on Tue, 05 Jun 2001’s e-mail explained you my point of view and you escaped it with that as you don’t know him you can’t comment.
Now you might be thinking that I haven’t yet discussed your actual article, well, sorry for delay. Ok from below it is the actual discussion.
Why do you believe on a paper issued by a human, don’t you think that “imperfect human” can be wrong in his/her decision? You might have heard of cases of “doctor’s mischief killed a person” and so on. Ali, your views change so quickly that it is even hard for an F1 macleran to follow. At one place you deny a prophet as he is “imperfect Human” (prophet) and at other place you are more then happy to sit under the knife of another “imperfect human” (doctor). And know what, the first person was telling you to believe him, when you are in your senses, but with other one, you might be unconscious. So next time you visit a surgeon, think twice!!!
Ok, ok you keep on telling that Muhammad killed his enemy, but do you know that they were always given the option to either except or be at war, and at sometimes, it was to either believe or pay JIZYA. Even the above two things were second to the preaching them through a person, and conveying them the message. Ok what would you have done if you were a ruler with hostile enemy around you? Would you have waited until they get you killed in your own home, like of Usman (Ottoman) who prefer to die then to kill the rebels. Or what about Ali, when in a war, he was about to kill the knocked-down enemy, he spitted on his face, instead of killing him, Ali asked him to leave as now this is not for Islam, this is now personal. What about Muhammad when he captured Makkah and announced amnesty to everyone? And these are not the only examples, but there are tons of more.
Muslims, believe on spending their life in a way that it is not solely spent in a corner of world, with no interaction with and knowledge of around. Islam is that you live in this world, you develop this world, you take path in research, and so, but all in the limits. And these limits are what we call the Islam. Praying five times a day, fasting for a month, and doing a hajj in life, in no way hinder any of the works. Do you think that it is bad in Islam, that it has said strong words against wine? Don’t you think that its scientifically known side effects were not known to anyone 1400 years ago? Then how could someone tell that? Eating pork is forbidden in Islam, why? It leads to diseases of liver and so on, even can lead to exposure to round worms. How did they ever come to know all this 1400 years ago? Well quite amazing, don’t you think so?
Well the thing you said about TV and computers, remind me of MAN E-SALVA. Why don’t we all post this message to our website
“URGENT: We need a GOD/ALLAH, who can give us answers to different things like:
1) Reality of UFOs. 2) Genetic code of Human in HTML and FLASH format, and PDF will count a plus point. 3) Teleportation method. 4) 100% look real US dollars (quantity: as much as we need and no matter when). 5) Provide us servers for our home, with multiprocessor support and terabyte disk storage. 6) Direct Internet connection to His Intranet, just to ensure maximum speed. 7) Not to mention the free tech-support for unlimited years.
NOTE: We might ask for more, which are not mentioned above. And also keep in mind that we are under no obligation to follow you even after that and that means no product return.
FOR WEBMASTERS: you might add according to your needs, but please drop an e-mail about it at freethinkers @ no-matter-what-you-say-we-don’t-believe. Net. Otherwise it will be considered a breach of our copyright projected notice.”
I hope that you like the above message. And hope that you got the real meaning.
Ali, as you have a wide experience of being and being with Atheists, can you tell me that is this intentional that you all just make a hill out of a mole o just unintentional? Just like in last e-mail it was Santa and in this the splitting of moon. Next time you write me reply please avoid this, as this make the serious stuff, quite funny.
Not again. I have explained this (your view of killing) already in the article. And what was contrary to what I said?? Please try to make your writing specific, especially replies. More suggestions will pop up as you read.
And Ali when you failed to reason your own view, by explaining it and making it clear on me, you just decided to make me target. Never mind may be I would have seen such remarks if it was anyone else (of your category), may be you all do this to hide from the reasoning.
Thank you for appreciating my state of being open minded J. By the way there was no need to mention it. I knew it already. And your grand father is indeed a person to meet. As I have already asked you a question about him, add another one. Is he alive? I want to meet him.
Have you ever heard “…things of past, reality of today. Fiction of today, reality of tomorrow and reality of today history of tomorrow…” If you didn’t then too bad, try to get into society of intellectuals. This might have got you to some conclusion, hope fully.
It is not true for everyone, to not accept the truth. Just to give you my example, I would ask for proof. In same way as I believe in Islam, because, I have proof. Just to tell you my very personal view, if someday, we all come to see Allah/God then religion will be simply of no need, then it will be knowledge, which is not religion. Also don’t put finger at me like that, if you say that I am cocooned in lie, then you must prove and satisfy me, otherwise this all discussion will be all in vain.
Ali, do you believe that anything can start by its self. According to Newton’s law of motion, a body at rest remains at rest unless a force is applied on it, and a body in motion remains in motion, until it undergoes a resistive force, equal to the force applied on it. If you don’t then please look into elementary books of Physics at a local bookshop. Now if you read that there, how will you explain that single cell to be have evolved to this complex human and other life structure, without been triggered? Ali I want you to answer this.
As you have answered the “whom to follow” at the end, therefore I will like to explain it at the end too J
Oh! Come one Ali, stop praising, me so much. I know how much appreciation I deserve and that I will explain to you when this all discussion ends. At the end of this whole debate, I would like to reveal some very amazing facts too. But actually can’t talk about them much. They might not be funny as your claims but they will be based on truth.
Now how can you complain that Islam has no relation with science and that it is anti-science when you just tell me that I am wrong by stating my prove as “pseudo-science”. Can’t do much about that, as my writings are for those who think after becoming neutral. Not for someone who still regrets that why the people in his grand father’s time didn’t had digital cameras to record the splitting. So he could show it later to the public to support his prophecy. Ali, will you do the same with the proves that your studies are wrong claiming them to be “pseudo-science”?
I have already talked in start about your answer to my question about rational thinking. I think that was enough. Wasn’t it?
Well it really escaped my attention. Sorry. But it was equally interesting, believe me.
You escape cleverly from my question. But believe me, this is in profit to no one. Only if you answer me to my questions right, only then we can have a type of discussion called “fair discussion”. Also to be posting of this on you site is an SOS to the fellow ring members. Right??
As you tried to escape from the fact of Islam, as fastest spreading religion. You just tried a common trick. In indo-Pakistan, this is known in a folk saying, “Pigeon closes its eyes on seeing cat, and thinks to be on safe side”. Ali, if you think that people leaving Islam are in far more number then I would like to see a prove. I provided you with a fact, a fact supplied to you through a widely claimed book. You got some complaint over that; best thing is to send this comment to Guinness book of world Record. Ask them to revise it and try an online petition for this reason. I am sure that this will more then satisfy you.
Don’t worry I am preparing answer to Roy and your article, but have feeling that you will again decorate it with your classic term “P-science”.
You don’t want religion to be in anyway into public life is just another thing like “we want no laws, we want a law free world”. Ali due to interaction with you from last month I offer you my services to make even a banner for this purpose too. Yes for FREE!!!!!
Ali I suggest you to make a search of “Hutchison Effect” in the “google.com” and do let me know why this guy’s theory is not taught in our elementary school along with Newton’s and Einstein’s? Do we have to wait until he gets old enough, as they were?
Due to your question I had to consult a number of religious books, to explain this (the said abuse on women). Well according to my findings, Islam has allowed a man to beat his wife this much light that not even a mark appears on her skin. But this is the last stage. If you have any conflict with your wife, you have to first explain your point of view and give her opportunity to tell her perspective. Either the solution will be found in this process, and if not then leave them, and don’t even sleep them. This act of leaving doesn’t mean divorce but just staying silent. Then if your wife even then doesn’t stop from that, then the beating comes in tact. If your wife agrees of it afterwards then never ever use that thing to target her at anytime. And if she doesn’t then give her a divorce, which is the Allah, don’t like. I don’t know what you’ve been reading in this regard. But your questions will always be welcomed, like before.
Believe me if this was another Muslim, then forget the e-mail, he would have tracing your place and you know what next. But since I my self asked you for challenge, which you misunderstood in a way, I am ready. But still some moral values will have to be kept in mind and you know which one. By the way after you receive the first e-mail from Allah, can you kindly tell me that the website where the Allah has e-mail account, is this “Gabriel.gov.div”. Or is this all a direct e-mail system?
As for the first prove I want you to show me the book, like Quran, that explains the whole, and each and every system around us. As I know you for a time, a relaxation, don’t include Arrabs, if in Arabic, and if in English, no need for a hard back cover edition.
I am looking eagerly to the reply to my questions and challenges. And by the way, as you know that in this digital age you might be too much close to Allah, I want you to tomorrow, in BBC’s regular transmission, why don’t you ask Allah to add your holy book’s translation in 15 languages. I know that it will be a no problem for an e-powered Prophet, Ali.
Kind regards,
Malik Usman.

___________________
As you claim to be a free speaker, and freethinker; I dare you to put this e-mail, as it is.
------------------------------

--

_______________________________________________
Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone.
Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121

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 His reply:

From: "Ali Sina" <afreethinker@hotmail.com> [Save Address] [Block Sender]
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Cc: islami@consultant.com
Subject: Fwd: You know, I actually didn't liked the idea of....
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 00:35:10
REPLY | REPLY ALL | FORWARD [As Attachment] Previous | Next | Delete | Close

Dear All

This is part of an ongoing debate that I am having with Mr. Usman Malik. The
full transcript of the previous exchanges can be found in this link.
http://free.freespeech.org/rationalthinking/origin_of_god.htm


I am forwarding it to you because he challenged me to publish it. It will
also apear in my website.


From: "Usman Malik" <islami@consultant.com>
To: afreethinker@hotmail.com
Subject: You know, I actually didn't liked the idea of....
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 03:00:59 +0500


Dear Ali,
Thank you for your reply; I just had a feeling of not receiving a reply
due to delay in the reply. But well; now I am feeling quite happy after I
understood more about you. But believe me (only if you like, no hard
feelings if you don’t) I just tonight was discussing your way of reply with
one of my very close friend, while comparing with someone else I knew and we
both agreed that you don’t attack other person personally. But sorry this
last proved it to be all wrong. Yeah, yeah, I know man is not as perfect to
judge any one perfectly, but know what “we understand by our mistakes”. Ali,
know what? Roy Avijit’s article linked on your site is more then easy to be
proved wrong. Actually he has used a very old way, and I also checked your
“Quranic contradictions”, it is somewhat also written on the same old
principle. I will be glad to send you my answers to them, once I complete
reading them thoroughly.

“””””The full correspondence with Usman is in 3 parts. I found it
interesting because I could peep into the mind of a true believer. The mind
of a believer is a world in it own. If Marx was wrong in everything, he was
right when he said religion is the opiate of the masses. A religious brain
is indeed a brain on drugs.
Correspondence with Usman Malik “”””””

Quite funny! Yes I looked into your new pages, but you know were nothing but
bad humor, and you must know, if you can “peep” into someone’s mind that
laughing at other is the easiest thing to do when you can do nothing. (Ali,
I challenge you to write this whole e-mail, as it is in PART IV
(usman4.htm), if you think that you have courage to have free speech J ).
Now the next thing is that are you still serious to have this discussion
with me? Wow, that was awesome; its for your grand dad, you know I was quite
amazed. But did he also claim Prophecy right after that? And by the way why
did he do that, I mean reason? He could do something more well like
splitting the neutron and be the next Einstein. And why didn’t he invented a
PC or TV right away, you know, “SOCIAL WORK”.
Personally I didn’t like the idea of yours of displaying my whole
conversation with you on your website, it might have increased the content
for your website, but… ok if it helped you in anyway, I am more then ever
egger to help you more in this part. May be more people like, Roy Avijit
will also be from now on to help you, on how to answer me (multiple brains,
generate more brain power). You will be glad to find more convincing e-mail
from me (feeds for your site).
By the way, you don’t answer me about everything. I asked about your
rational thinking and you escaped it with that its like art or music. But I
think these both the forms of arts are explained able, if not teach able. Of
course you cannot transfer creativity but you can transfer your feelings in
a paragraph, if you know how to. What do think of me, I on Tue, 05 Jun
2001’s e-mail explained you my point of view and you escaped it with that as
you don’t know him you can’t comment.
Now you might be thinking that I haven’t yet discussed your actual article,
well, sorry for delay. Ok from below it is the actual discussion.
Why do you believe on a paper issued by a human, don’t you think that
“imperfect human” can be wrong in his/her decision? You might have heard of
cases of “doctor’s mischief killed a person” and so on. Ali, your views
change so quickly that it is even hard for an F1 macleran to follow. At one
place you deny a prophet as he is “imperfect Human” (prophet) and at other
place you are more then happy to sit under the knife of another “imperfect
human” (doctor). And know what, the first person was telling you to believe
him, when you are in your senses, but with other one, you might be
unconscious. So next time you visit a surgeon, think twice!!!
Ok, ok you keep on telling that Muhammad killed his enemy, but do you know
that they were always given the option to either except or be at war, and at
sometimes, it was to either believe or pay JIZYA. Even the above two things
were second to the preaching them through a person, and conveying them the
message. Ok what would you have done if you were a ruler with hostile enemy
around you? Would you have waited until they get you killed in your own
home, like of Usman (Ottoman) who prefer to die then to kill the rebels. Or
what about Ali, when in a war, he was about to kill the knocked-down enemy,
he spitted on his face, instead of killing him, Ali asked him to leave as
now this is not for Islam, this is now personal. What about Muhammad when he
captured Makkah and announced amnesty to everyone? And these are not the
only examples, but there are tons of more.
Muslims, believe on spending their life in a way that it is not solely spent
in a corner of world, with no interaction with and knowledge of around.
Islam is that you live in this world, you develop this world, you take path
in research, and so, but all in the limits. And these limits are what we
call the Islam. Praying five times a day, fasting for a month, and doing a
hajj in life, in no way hinder any of the works. Do you think that it is bad
in Islam, that it has said strong words against wine? Don’t you think that
its scientifically known side effects were not known to anyone 1400 years
ago? Then how could someone tell that? Eating pork is forbidden in Islam,
why? It leads to diseases of liver and so on, even can lead to exposure to
round worms. How did they ever come to know all this 1400 years ago? Well
quite amazing, don’t you think so?
Well the thing you said about TV and computers, remind me of MAN E-SALVA.
Why don’t we all post this message to our website
“URGENT: We need a GOD/ALLAH, who can give us answers to different things
like:
1) Reality of UFOs. 2) Genetic code of Human in HTML and FLASH format, and
PDF will count a plus point. 3) Teleportation method. 4) 100% look real US
dollars (quantity: as much as we need and no matter when). 5) Provide us
servers for our home, with multiprocessor support and terabyte disk storage.
6) Direct Internet connection to His Intranet, just to ensure maximum speed.
7) Not to mention the free tech-support for unlimited years.
NOTE: We might ask for more, which are not mentioned above. And also keep in
mind that we are under no obligation to follow you even after that and that
means no product return.
FOR WEBMASTERS: you might add according to your needs, but please drop an
e-mail about it at freethinkers @ no-matter-what-you-say-we-don’t-believe.
Net. Otherwise it will be considered a breach of our copyright projected
notice.”
I hope that you like the above message. And hope that you got the real
meaning.
Ali, as you have a wide experience of being and being with Atheists, can you
tell me that is this intentional that you all just make a hill out of a mole
o just unintentional? Just like in last e-mail it was Santa and in this the
splitting of moon. Next time you write me reply please avoid this, as this
make the serious stuff, quite funny.
Not again. I have explained this (your view of killing) already in the
article. And what was contrary to what I said?? Please try to make your
writing specific, especially replies. More suggestions will pop up as you
read.
And Ali when you failed to reason your own view, by explaining it and making
it clear on me, you just decided to make me target. Never mind may be I
would have seen such remarks if it was anyone else (of your category), may
be you all do this to hide from the reasoning.
Thank you for appreciating my state of being open minded J. By the way there
was no need to mention it. I knew it already. And your grand father is
indeed a person to meet. As I have already asked you a question about him,
add another one. Is he alive? I want to meet him.
Have you ever heard “…things of past, reality of today. Fiction of today,
reality of tomorrow and reality of today history of tomorrow…” If you didn’t
then too bad, try to get into society of intellectuals. This might have got
you to some conclusion, hope fully.
It is not true for everyone, to not accept the truth. Just to give you my
example, I would ask for proof. In same way as I believe in Islam, because,
I have proof. Just to tell you my very personal view, if someday, we all
come to see Allah/God then religion will be simply of no need, then it will
be knowledge, which is not religion. Also don’t put finger at me like that,
if you say that I am cocooned in lie, then you must prove and satisfy me,
otherwise this all discussion will be all in vain.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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 His reply:

From: "Ali Sina" <afreethinker@hotmail.com> [Save Address] [Block Sender]
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Cc: islami@consultant.com
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Fwd: You know, I actually didn't liked the idea of....
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 05:48:02
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Dear Usman

I did not attack your person. There is no need to that.

If you can disprove Roy Ajivit and the Contradictions in Quran written by
Syed Kamran Mirza, please do so. I am sure they would be happy to hear that.
There is no need to brag and say it is easy to refute them. Just refute
them.

I am sorry you did not like my initiative to publish our correspondence. I
personally love when others publish my works, unless there is something
personal in it and then I will make sure to tell them not to. In our debate
I see nothing of personal nature.

I believe it is my Mi’raj to Heaven that you call “bad humor”. I don’t see
anything bad in it. This is my “true” story of visit with God and if you do
not believe tell me why you reject my Mi’raj and accept Muhammad’s? My story
is even more colorful with more realistic details. I posted the whole
extraordinary episode in my site. Here it is.
http://free.freespeech.org/rationalthinking/my_miraj.htm


About my great grand father splitting the Sun, as I said this is a “true”
story. It is as true as is Muhammad’s splitting of the moon. You already
said that splitting the moon is scientific, so I do not understand why it is
so difficult for you to accept what I tell you about the miracles of my
great grand father. I challenge you to disprove it. You can call me a liar,
but can you prove that I am a liar? You also said the faith does not require
proof, so why are you asking for photos? Do you have any photos from
Muhammad’s splitting of the moon?

You asked why my great grand father split the Sun. He did that for the same
reasons that Muhammad split the Moon. Why did Muhammad split the Moon? You
asked “why he did not do something more useful like splitting the neutron
and become the next Einstein or why he didn’t invented a PC or TV or other
social work”. May I ask you why Muhammad did not do what you are suggesting?
Please answer that.

Rational thinking is thinking using your own brain. One of the requirements
of rational thinking is freethinking. Freethinking means thinking
independently without relying on an authority to solve your problem.
Freethinkers and rational thinkers listen to everyone but they do not come
to any decision because a certain solution is given by a known and trusted
authority. The final authority to decide what is wrong and what is right is
themselves.

Another characteristic of the rational thinkers is that they rely on facts.
They do not accept anything as true unless there are solid facts proving it.
This does not mean that they reject all those things for which there is not
evidence yet. But they will remain skeptics until facts are found.

However there are things that go against logic, science and human reason.
Those things are not accepted by rational thinkers. They belong to the real
of fantasy, myths and fable.

Let me clarify with an example. The early pictures of the Mars revealed a
rock formation that resembled a human face. Some people started making
stories about it. They said this is the remnant of a lost civilization of
early Martians whose plants was dying and they made this face to solicit
help from extramartian creatures. Though this expiation was outlandish, it
was not entirely absurd. A rational thinker in this situation will not
accept this hypothesis because there is not enough evidence to support it.
However because it is not absolutely impossible, he will remain skeptic.
People in NASA never believed in the man’s face on the Mars. However they
still went there and took more pictures just in case. The closer pictures
showed that there is no such a face. The lights and shadows in the early
pictures made it appear so. The reason NASA did not discard the whole
thought is because that theory though very improbable was not impossible.

But what about the story of Muhammad splitting the Moon!? Do you think
scientists should study this and talk about it? This is the most foolish
thought. How someone from the Earth can split another planet? If such a
phenomenon takes place, the two pieces of the Moon will hit the Earth and
all life will disappear in this planet for at least few thousands of years.
The clouds of dust will cover everything. All vegetation will die. It will
have the effect of hitting the Earth with two nitrogen bombs each billions
of times more powerful than the most powerful bomb we have. How is it that
Muhammad can split the Moon in Mecca and the inhabitants of Mecca see one
half of the Moon in the right of the Mount Hira and the other half in the
left and the entire world remain oblivious of it? You are offended that I
made fun of the brain of the believers. If you don’t want to become the
subject of laughter then please do not make ridiculous statements. Those who
make these fables did not have a clue that Moon is a planet. They thought it
is a lamp as it says in the Quran. They had no idea of the gravitational
force. How splitting the Moon could be scientific? Would you like to
elaborate on that?

What about the story of Noah? I explained that in my previous email. You did
not answer my questions. I repeat them again.

In order for the waters to cover the tip of all the mountains as it is said
in the story of Noah, we need at least 10 times more water than there is in
the Earth. The earth is a close environment. Where did this much water come
and where did it go? How the animals from South America, Australia and the
rest of the world went to Cannan? Who informed them and gave them the
address of Noah? There are millions of species, as of yet the scientists
have not been able to complete the list of all the species of the animals,
including insects and birds of this planet, how a handful of people like the
old Noah and his sons could gather all of these animals? How these animals
crossed the oceans? It takes a sloth, hours to go forward few meters. For a
South American sloth to go to Canaan it would have taken a thousand years.
How they got there? Where Noah lodged this mach animal? How he fed them?
Pandas eat bamboo and Koalas a certain Eucalyptus that do not grow in
Canaan. Did these animals bring their own food along? How they were kept
apart? Many animals are carnivores; what did they eat during this time?
Please explain these questions scientifically.

How can Mi’raj be scientific? I asked you the following questions in my
second message to you. If God is supposed to be omnipresent, why Muhammad
had to go somewhere else to meet him? Is Jerusalem the gateway to Heaven? If
Muhammad traveled on a winged steed in one night to get to heaven then the
heaven must be a physical place close to the Earth. You cannot travel
outside the Earth’s atmosphere with wings. Wings will only take you were
there is air. With so many mapping, air travels satellite photos why we
haven’t find this heaven? If heaven is not a physical place why Muhammad
needed the winged steed? If Allah was behind the curtain then he cannot be
omnipresent. An omnipresent god cannot be behind, in front, under or over
anything. He is everywhere. This whole story is so naïf that it is mind
boggling anyone still believe in it. But faith blinds. If someone said a
similar story about someone else, no Muslim would believe it, but since it
is about Muhammad, all lies are truth. The bigger the lie, the better it is.
Please answer these questions.

Is jinn scientific? Has anyone ever seen a jinn? How about unicorns? Do they
exist? These are childish beliefs. When you think like a child how can you
expect to be treated like an adult? When you believe in irrational things
how you want me to tell you what is rational thinking? Okay, rational
thinking is thinking completely opposite to the way you think. That is
rational thinking. This is not a personal attack. This is a fact.

All the above stories are unscientific. They are irrational and any one who
believes in them is not a rational thinker. This is the definition of
rational thinking. I am not escaping from explaining to you the meaning of
rational thinking but it seems that you are not getting it. What I said is
not new. In fact I copied and pasted the above three paragraphs from my
previous messages to you. So, why you say I did not explain the meaning of
rational thinking? In the first email you sent to me, where you said you
want to leave Islam and want me to tell you what to do, I asked you to read
my article What Religion to Choose? In the Freethinking section. There I
explained the whole idea of rational thinking. You said you read it, but you
still ask me the same question. Did you read my article called Freethinking?

In contrast religious thinking is using the sacred books as the authority to
decide between right and wrong. A religious man does not use his brain. He
consults his holy book instead.

You see my friend, before I started to disprove Islam; I read the entire
Quran, most of the Hadiths and several other Islamic books about the life of
the Muhammad. If you want to win your opponent, you have to know him. When
you know him you can learn about his weaknesses and then attack him. You did
not read anything of what I wrote. You don’t even pay attention to what I
write specifically addressed to you. You keep repeating the same questions
over and over. This is not rational thinking.


You ask, why I trust a doctor and not a prophet. I explained it clearly. The
reason I trust the doctor to operate on me is because he is licensed. In
order to get his license he had to pass all the exams and do some training
in a hospital. There a trusted government institution certifying his
qualification.

What is the proof of the prophets? Nothing. They just come and tell you they
are prophets and you believe them. That is all. I made the same claim too,
why do you still argue with me? Why don’t you believe me? What Muhammad
produced as the proof that I haven’t?

There is a difference in trusting a certified doctor and an uncertified
prophet. If the doctor was not certified I would not believe in him. Please
do not keep asking the same question over and over. You either accept what I
say or refute it by some sort of reasoning or just move on. I do not have
time to explain the same thing several times.


You wrote, “Ok, ok you keep on telling that Muhammad killed his enemy, but
do you know that they were always given the option to either except or be at
war and at sometimes, it was to either believe or pay JIZYA?”

How about me doing to you the same thing that Muhammad did to others? How
would you like if I tell you accept me as the messenger of God or face the
consequences? Suppose I have the manpower and enough hungry gangsters and
merciless brainwashed hounds like Muhammad did. Is it fair? Do you thing
that would be right for me to come and kill you, rape your wife and take
your kids as slaves if you refuse my religion? Do you still want me to tell
you what is rational thinking? This is rational thinking.

You wrote, “Ok what would you have done if you were a ruler with hostile
enemy around you? Would you have waited until they get you killed in your
own home.”

No one wanted to attack the Muslims. ALL Muhammad’s wars were offensive.
Please do not keep repeating the same lies. Here is the text of the message
the Mohammad sent to the Julanda brothers the rulers of Oman:

"Peace be upon the one who follows the right path! I call you to Islam.
Accept my call, and you shall be unharmed. I am God's Messenger to mankind,
and the word shall be carried out upon the miscreants. If, therefore, you
recognize Islam, I shall bestow power upon you. But if you refuse to accept
Islam, your power shall vanish, my horses shall camp on the expanse of your
territory and my prophecy shall prevail in your kingdom."

It is clear that Muhammad was the aggressor. Did Persia attack Muhammad? Did
Syria attack Muhammad? Did Spain attack Muslims. Tell me what country attack
Islam first. The problem with religious people is that they lie and they
think because this lie is for the religion it is okay. In fact Muslims would
commit murder, assassination and rape all in the name of Allah and that is
okay.

As far as praying, fasting, not drinking, not consuming pork is concerned I
don’t give a damn. Whether it is good or bad it is your business. You are
not allowed to impose any of that on others or me. Keep your religion to
yourself. That is what I say. Just as you do not appreciate the followers of
other religions dictated their religions on you, you should not dictate your
religion of others.

You wrote, “if you say that I am cocooned in lie, then you must prove and
satisfy me,”

I think that is what I have done all along. When I explained to you the
absurdity of the stories of Noah, Mi’raj, jinns and splitting the Moon, that
was exactly what I was doing. I was proving that those stories are lies,
they are childish, they are stupid and anyone who believes in these
fairytales is cocooned in lies. There are more lies in Islam. Islam is full
of lies. We just happened to mention these lies. Another lie is that
Muhammad made was to defend itself. This is yet a huge lie that all Muslims
know but keep repeating. You know perfectly that this is a lie. Tell me one
war were Muslims were attacked and they had to defend themselves.

As for your question about the first cause, it is a long subject, I have a
couple of articles in my site. One of them is mine and the other belongs to
Avijit Roy. Please read them and then try to refute them. I will not engage
in any discussion on this topic until you read these two articles. I hate
repetitions.
http://free.freespeech.org/rationalthinking/chance_or_intelligence.htm


I said that Islam is not scientific because all the statements in Quran are
unscientific. What you tried to explain is not science. Science is not how a
mullah explains the obtuse verses of Quran. Rehashing some nonsense adorned
with few scientific jargon is not the substitute of science. Splitting he
Moon, Noah’s ark and all the nonsense in Quran are unscientific.

About the proof of the fallacy of Islam being the fastest growing religion,
it is enough if you visit any Iranian forum and see the percentage of people
who are against Islam. In Scandinavia there was a census, 50% of the
Iranians said they are atheist. 40% said they are Muslim by name. Only 10%
claimed to be practicing Muslims. Those who leave Islam do not go
advertising about it. They fear persecution. They know too well that Muslims
are criminals and will kill with clear conscience anyone who decides to
apostatize. That is why you don’t hear much about it. But you hear that in
the Internet because in the Internet people can say whatever is in their
heart without fearing you. As I said, the number of the population in Muslim
countries is on the rise because there is more natality among the poor and
uneducated people; Muslims generally are poor and uneducated. The number of
the Muslims in the West is also on the rise because they are immigrating
here for better life. But there are several times more people leaving Islam
than those embracing it. However those who leave, leave silently and those
who embrace it are announced with trumpets. Moreover, those who leave it are
generally highly educated intellectuals, those who embrace it are the
uneducated people from the intercities of America or the resentful blacks
trying to establish an identity that is in contrast with the white and their
religion.

You wrote, “You don’t want religion to be in anyway into public life is just
another thing like “we want no laws, we want a law free world”.

Personal principles are personal. If you want to raise your children
according to your principles you are welcome. But just as you do not
appreciate a Jehowa Witness imposing his personal laws on you, the rest of
the world does not appreciate you to impose Islamic laws on them. Belief
must remain a private matter. If I decide to leave Islam, do not say my
prayers drink wine or take my wife to a beach, wearing bikini, it is none of
your business. Your religious practices also should not be of my concern.
In this world everyone should be free to choose the religion that he likes
and be an atheist if he so prefers. Just as you do not appreciate me coming
to your house with a gun and hand to you an ultimatum like the one Muhammad
sent to the rulers of Oman, we do not appreciate Muslims forcing their
religion on us. Reason dictates that to keep the peace people must be free
to choose the religion of their choice. This is rational thinking.

Now we need social laws, but those laws are civil laws and apply to everyone
equally. They are there to protect our rights and our freedom. They do not
discriminate against anyone for belief, race or class. No one is dimmi or is
forced to pay Jizyah


As for beating the women you wrote. “Well according to my findings, Islam
has allowed a man to beat his wife this much light that not even a mark
appears on her skin.”

First of all Quran does not say beat your wife so lightly that not even a
mark appear on her skin. This is another lie concocted for the consumption
of the foolhardy. Read Quran (4:34). What is the purpose of beating if it
is supposed not to hurt? Are you really so naïf? Secondly why beat the
women? What are we supposed to establish by that? That we are stronger? That
we are the boss? This is the most shameful animalistic behavior. Shame on a
man who raised his hand over a woman. Shame on a man who tries to justify
this barbaric teaching. Even if the beating is just “symbolic” as you
pretend, that is the symbolism of barbarity. It is inhumane to beat a woman
even if it is with a flower stem. Apart from beating, scolding her and
shunning her from the bed are also verbal, psychological, emotional and
sexual abuses. Beating is just another form of abuse. The whole Quran is
based on abuse of women. Shame on a man who would defend that abuse.

Men and women are equal. If there is an impasse between them it is the man
who should concede not the other way around. Muhammad had a brain of a
Neanderthal. He only knew one thing and that was brutal force. For him might
was right. When Muslims became strong he started killing his opponents and
that was the proof that his message was from God. He thought men have the
right over women and God has made them excel over them because they were
physically stronger. This sick man thought like the beast of the Jungle. He
had no understanding of the inner strength of the humans. There are many
qualities for which women excel over men, like intuition, speech, affection,
forbearance, resourcefulness, and many more. But Muhammad could not see them
because he was a brute man that could only see the animalistic force.


You wrote, “Believe me if this was another Muslim, then forget the e-mail,
he would have tracing your place and you know what next.”

You don’t have to convince me for that. I know that perfectly. This is the
sunnah of the Prophet. That is the way the Muslims have acted all the time.
This is the true Islam. Thank you for being so frank. Most Muslims like to
lie about it. They deny it and often quote “to you your religion and to me
mine” a verse that Muhammad forgot when he went to Medina and became
powerful. Deceit is what Islam is all about. When you are weak, you say
Islam is the religion of peace but as soon as you can you go killing your
opponents.

Please if you want to continue, read carefully what I write and try to
refute me. Do not ask the same question over and over. My opponents must
also some degree of scholarly ability or they are not my opponents.

Kind Regards


Ali Sina


Please reply to mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com


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 Avijit Roy's Reply:

From: "Ali Sina" <afreethinker@hotmail.com> [Save Address] [Block Sender]
To: islami@consultant.com
Cc:
Subject: Fwd: Re: [mukto-mona] Fwd: You know, I actually didn't liked the idea of....
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 06:54:33
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From: "Avijit Roy" <avijitroy@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Fwd: You know, I actually didn't liked the idea
of....
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 06:01:40

Attn: Dr. Ali Sina

Dear Ali Sina,
I actually dont understand what Usman Malik want to imply. I have read his
e-mail but could not decipher quite a lot of things. He said, "Roy Avijit’s
article linked on your site is more then easy to be proved wrong. Actually
he has used a very old way,...". I dont understand which aricle he is
referring to. As far I know you linked .... MohaGuru Aroj Ali Matubbar's
"Quest for truth" in your site. If it is the article which he want to arrow,
then I would like to say ...yes the writing style of the original author is
not new (because it's Bangla version was published in 1973). I just keep
it's English translation there. And I cannot change original author's
writing style (as it is not my writting), he must understand. But my point
is--- it does not really matter whether the writing style is new or old
--rather it is more important what's the material inside. Important question
is, Could Mr. Malik refute any of the point raised by Mohaguru in his "Quest
for Truth" ? I did not find any.

He also mentioned that "....in Islam, that it has said strong words against
wine? Don’t you think that its scientifically known side effects were not
known to anyone 1400 years ago? Then how could someone tell that? Eating
pork is forbidden in Islam, why? It leads to diseases of liver and so on,
even can lead to exposure to round worms. How did they ever come to know all
this 1400 years ago?..."

This is very clever comment of Malik, I must say. He talked about eating
pork. Ok...But what about eating cow ? Well, eating cow is not forbidden in
Islam. But am sure if it would forbidden for some silly reason, I am sure
...they would have pointed out then those recent "mad cow" diseases all over
the country and argued "How did Quran come to know about 1400 years ago
?!!???". Hindus do not eat beaf. Even they do not claim that their scripture
could have predicted it long time ago (literally long time...long before
Quran was revealed !).
About wine ...we everybody know initially Islam did not prohibit of taking
wine. There is also a verse in Quran which reveals that it is a sign of
great intelligence of human being that they can produce wine from grape. It
only prohibited when there ouccured a bloody war, main cause of which was
drinking wine, they claim. He should know the history first then he should
argue.
Anyway, I have a question to Mr. Malik. Actually, it is not wholly true that
wine is bad for health. it is excessive drinking. We have seen even in some
diseases (Asthma etc.) doctors sometimes prescribe wine to the patient. But
what about smoking ? All doctors are agreed in this issue that there is no
benefit even in limited smoking. They do not advise to smoke to any patient
in any circumstances. Because, it is proven that smoking is more injurious
than taking wine. So my question is...why did not Quran prohibit his
followers from smoking ? I have seen many muslims who usually smoke but do
not take wine because of the fear of allah (or to go to heaven afterworld).
It is totally rediculous to give reason of health or side effects for not
taking wine while they do not restrict smoking ! Can he explain anything abt
this ? Perhaps not. Because when quran revealed, there was no custom of
smoking in arab tribes. So even omniscient allah could not have visualized
the future scenario, and that's why we cannot find any rules or restrictions
regarding this !!!!

Anyway, I have to gotta go now. If Mr. Ali wants he can discuss further on
this matter with us. I can include him in our mukto-mona group, so that we
all can perticipate, what abt that ?


Regards,
Avijit


>From: "Ali Sina" <afreethinker@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>CC: islami@consultant.com
>Subject: [mukto-mona] Fwd: You know, I actually didn't liked the idea
>of....
>Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 00:35:10
>
>
>Dear All
>
>This is part of an ongoing debate that I am having with Mr. Usman Malik.
>The
>full transcript of the previous exchanges can be found in this link.
> http://free.freespeech.org/rationalthinking/origin_of_god.htm
>
>
>I am forwarding it to you because he challenged me to publish it. It will
>also apear in my website.
>
>
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